rev limiter

Oke which is better base for a ported intake mani. The b16 intake mani or the itr intake mani. I all ready have a max bore 64 mm tb.

Deetz

The B16 manifold makes more power accross the board. There has been a lot of dyno testing on this.

EKhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Deetz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The B16 manifold makes more power accross the board. There has been a lot of dyno testing on this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Really? Post up some links.

Deetz

Pick a copy of this book made by SA Design:

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vs...TID=3

You find many useful dyno results including B16 vs its, as well as ported versions, the B16 wins everytime, even on larger displacement engines.

EKhatch

I wonder why almost all available aftermarket manifolds are closer modeled after the ITR? Seems the 1.6L B-series would have a plenum closer to the ITR while the more performance oriented ITR would be opposite if what you are saying was true?

Do you see where I am going with this yet?

EDIT: I see you have a B18C5, you got a B16 plenum on it? If not then why not? Seems as though it would be a cheap upgrade considering you could get one for practically nothing and sell the ITR/Skunk for big profit and make more power across the board.


Modified by EKhatch at 10:08 PM 12/27/2004


Modified by EKhatch at 10:09 PM 12/27/2004

rev limiter

hmmm looks like ekhatch has a point.

Deetz

Yes, i recently picked up a 2nd gen B16A intake manifold. I have not yet had a chance to have it ported yet, but it will be an upgrade to whats on there now...anyone want an oem itr manifold cheap? ha ha

DavidT or VajT

It's also funny how B16 manifolds have a hard time selling for $30...and ITR manifolds get raped for $150+. If someone thinks the B16 intake manifold is better, then I have four laying around for $150 each...buy them!

Twiet

go sheetmetal

rev limiter

But seriously would a ported b16 mani be as good as a ported itr mani ?? tHey also cut the runners and make it equal lenght.

EKhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rev limiter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But seriously would a ported b16 mani be as good as a ported itr mani ?? tHey also cut the runners and make it equal lenght.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I doubt it and if that book is his only proof then......

Too much proving otherwise than an book with a lot of outdated technology saying one way or the other.

I am open to new ideas such as this B16 manifold hoax but until you show more solid proof then there is not much else to say.

If you cut the B16 runners they will not line back up properly if you remove any of the length.

Rollo Lawson

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EKhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I doubt it and if that book is his only proof then......

Too much proving otherwise than an book with a lot of outdated technology saying one way or the other.

I am open to new ideas such as this B16 manifold hoax but until you show more solid proof then there is not much else to say.</TD></TR></TABLE>

its funny that you say that when 99% of the people on here believe what they read. the majority of people swear by the itr im, yet, alot of people change it. the p30 im outperforms the itr on a modded b20 upto 7600rpm, after that the itr makes about 10whp more at 8000rpm and beyond. but, until then it losses out on the p30. the reason why people have a hard time believing it is because they are ignorant. i'm sorry, but its true. this is a fact....if you plan on revving tp 9K on your 16, 81 or 20, then, the itr stlye is better because the p30 will not be able to fill those cylinders at that rpm. if you stay below 8K, the p30 will win on most mild applications. and when you say the majority of aftermarket im's are designed similar to the itr, you are wrong. the aebs design is very close to the p30. all the way down to the horizontal lines on the plenum. from what i heard over a year ago, the aebs is a redesigned p30. look at the yellow JUN drag civic and autocross civic from a few years ago.....p30 im, Signal auto's rainbow paint turbo ek (12.2 on dr's) p30 im.

ce

I picked up 4whp on my b16 with the ITR IM. Only mods were I/H/E..

Deetz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ce &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I picked up 4whp on my b16 with the ITR IM. Only mods were I/H/E..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe so, but that would have been on the high end only after 8200 rpm. If you had spent the money extrude honing the b16 manifold, you would have even better results.

rev limiter

oke my engine will have 13:1 cr and will rev to 9k rpm so an extruded honed itr mani will be better than a extrude honed b16 mani ??

EKhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Deetz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Maybe so, but that would have been on the high end only after 8200 rpm. If you had spent the money extrude honing the b16 manifold, you would have even better results.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You still stand behinde your "across the board" theory?

EKhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16C1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

its funny that you say that when 99% of the people on here believe what they read. the majority of people swear by the itr im, yet, alot of people change it. the p30 im outperforms the itr on a modded b20 upto 7600rpm, after that the itr makes about 10whp more at 8000rpm and beyond. but, until then it losses out on the p30. the reason why people have a hard time believing it is because they are ignorant. i'm sorry, but its true. this is a fact....if you plan on revving tp 9K on your 16, 81 or 20, then, the itr stlye is better because the p30 will not be able to fill those cylinders at that rpm. if you stay below 8K, the p30 will win on most mild applications. and when you say the majority of aftermarket im's are designed similar to the itr, you are wrong. the aebs design is very close to the p30. all the way down to the horizontal lines on the plenum. from what i heard over a year ago, the aebs is a redesigned p30. look at the yellow JUN drag civic and autocross civic from a few years ago.....p30 im, Signal auto's rainbow paint turbo ek (12.2 on dr's) p30 im.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

So you are in disagreement as well then. He states "more power across the board" and you just stated otherwise as I have been saying.

EKhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rev limiter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oke my engine will have 13:1 cr and will rev to 9k rpm so an extruded honed itr mani will be better than a extrude honed b16 mani ??</TD></TR></TABLE>

Extrude hone plus the cost of an ITR you may as well go with a sheetmetal manifold as has been previously suggested.

Deetz

Ok, well, i not going to say any more about itafter this. From the dyno's i've seen, the hp gained across the powerband is verybenificial to street cars, even ones that rev to 9000rpm.

It will be a little while, but i'll be doing the B16 manifold with extrude hone on my B18C5. I will compare both 1/4 mile times and dyno's before and after and post all of my own results come spring.

I have no reason to make up numbers, just trying to help out.

EKhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Deetz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, well, i not going to say any more about itafter this. From the dyno's i've seen, the hp gained across the powerband is verybenificial to street cars, even ones that rev to 9000rpm.

It will be a little while, but i'll be doing the B16 manifold with extrude hone on my B18C5. I will compare both 1/4 mile times and dyno's before and after and post all of my own results come spring.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll try to keep an open mind and look forward to the results.

Mike@K-Tuned

I own, and have read the book that Deetz is talking about. The book was published in 2002 and the author was the owner/racer of an SCCA road course car with a B16 engine. First, I'll start by saying again, ROADCOURSE, he desired more midrange power production because his engine spent its entire life there. Second, the dyno tests that are being referred to, are correct, but it needs to be noted that the tested engines used OEM B16 cams with one exception (SCCA rules at the time would not allow the use of upgraded cams) The exception was a test on 2.0L with ITR cams and 12 to 1 comp, where the B16 made more than the ITR between 4300 & 7500rpm, the B16 showing about 6 more hp before it died @ 7500, and power dropped off completely. The curves on that dyno comparison differed mostly near vtec where it seemed that VTEC came on too late w/ITR installed, comprimising the power output in that part of the graph (lack of tuning/move the VTEC point). Up top though the ITR made a peak 12hp increase from 7500 to 9000 over the B16. Even on the test with b16 cams the ITR intake made power longer. He also put a Skunk 2 on his engine and it gave him mirror image results to his earlier ITR tests. Imagine if the author had an all-motor drag car and was able to use upgraded cams (and not the smallest dohc VTEC cams in the world) I'm sure it wouldn't take him long to find out that his intake manifold would need to be bigger to support engine breathing with stage 2 and 3 cams. Drag racing is spent for the most part in high rpm and thats where the ITR is clearly better. As for Extrude honing, we all know it will help any manifold flow better, thats a given. Just thought I'd give you guys some detail on the tests performed in the book, so that you can decide for yourself which manifold is better. I think my choice is quite obvious. Happy Holidays

EKhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EGgsrAM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Just thought I'd give you guys some detail on the tests performed in the book, so that you can decide for yourself which manifold is better. I think my choice is quite obvious. Happy Holidays </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks

Rollo Lawson

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EKhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So you are in disagreement as well then. He states "more power across the board" and you just stated otherwise as I have been saying. </TD></TR></TABLE>

how do you figure? i agree with the thread starter. the p30 will make more power from 2000-7600 on the b20, so how do i agree with you? you are grabbing at straws man. its hard for people to grasp because they don't know. there is no reason to rev a mild b20V above 8K, so, if that's the case, the p30 is ideal. everybody wants to rev to 9K, run crazy compression, drive around for weeks untuned....and then they wonder why they crack there stock sleeves.....with a big motor like the b20, your revs will come down, not go up. so, if the p30 makes more power upto 7600rpm and its a street driven car and not a dragger, its a no brainer. sorry if you don't agree. but, there is one thing that we can agree on, i hope....its about a good set up, not how high you can rev.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EGgsrAM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I own, and have read the book that Deetz is talking about. The book was published in 2002 and the author was the owner/racer of an SCCA road course car with a B16 engine. First, I'll start by saying again, ROADCOURSE, he desired more midrange power production because his engine spent its entire life there. Second, the dyno tests that are being referred to, are correct, but it needs to be noted that the tested engines used OEM B16 cams with one exception (SCCA rules at the time would not allow the use of upgraded cams) The exception was a test on 2.0L with ITR cams and 12 to 1 comp, where the B16 made more than the ITR between 4300 & 7500rpm, the B16 showing about 6 more hp before it died @ 7500, and power dropped off completely. The curves on that dyno comparison differed mostly near vtec where it seemed that VTEC came on too late w/ITR installed, comprimising the power output in that part of the graph (lack of tuning/move the VTEC point). Up top though the ITR made a peak 12hp increase from 7500 to 9000 over the B16. Even on the test with b16 cams the ITR intake made power longer. He also put a Skunk 2 on his engine and it gave him mirror image results to his earlier ITR tests. Imagine if the author had an all-motor drag car and was able to use upgraded cams (and not the smallest dohc VTEC cams in the world) I'm sure it wouldn't take him long to find out that his intake manifold would need to be bigger to support engine breathing with stage 2 and 3 cams. Drag racing is spent for the most part in high rpm and thats where the ITR is clearly better. As for Extrude honing, we all know it will help any manifold flow better, thats a given. Just thought I'd give you guys some detail on the tests performed in the book, so that you can decide for yourself which manifold is better. I think my choice is quite obvious. Happy Holidays </TD></TR></TABLE>

you need to read that book more accurately, kicko. the itr did not make power longer, it made it later. this is the problem with people, most of them can not read dyno's. the p30 made 3-5whp more over a 5100rpm spread, so, how does the itr make more power longer? because it made 12whp more from 7600-9000? wake up man. i'm not saying the the p30 is the ****, but, to correct EGgsram, the p30 makes power longer, because it has a wider powerband. 7600-9000 is a very
narrow part of the powerband. one that will not been seen on a regular basis if you are a daily driver. we have to stop trying to make draggers and stick to the drivabilty.

Deetz

^^^^ thank you.

rev limiter

Thansk EGgsrAM that is what i needed to know.

My car is a daily driver and weekend drag racer. So it WILL see 9k rpm. Not everyday but often enough.
And it is not a b20 but a resleeved 84.5 mm bore gsr. With stage 2 cams so i know i go with the itr mani.
At first i just wanted to start out with the stock itr mani, but there were some people saying that that was gonna hold me back. So now i am thinking if i should go with the ported/extruded mani right away. But i am allready over my budget that is why i am hesitating.