neverstop

i'm looking to put out 200whp with a built b20 on gsr cams. The goal is to go 13s on street tires (maybe nt555r) with an LS transmission in an eg hatch and get 40mpg or better on the freeway. I know cams would get me the power but they impact mpg pretty seriously. I already have race cars, i just want to talk smack to prius owners while stomping on the occasional 5.0 mustang with a fun, torquey, efficient commute car.

I currently have a 177whp ls vtec with gsr cams that is probably ~14.2 second car and best so far is ~38mpg but it has much more I could do to it (alignment, better tune, etc). Problem is that the rings are going out and so I have this built b20 sitting here with DNR ported head, je pistons12:1, eagle rods, etc.

The way I see it:

take the ~175whp my ls vtec puts out, add 9% more displacement for 9% more power, that gets 190whp, then add the ported head on a bigger bore motor, add an electronic cutout, ported p30 intake manifold, better bosch FIC 550cc fuel injectors, new rings, higher compression and a better tune plus port match everything and 200whp seems reachable?

has anyone put down 200whp with any setup on gsr cams?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

wouldnt gsr cams starve your engine to death?

what about type-r cams? type r gets pretty good gas mileage also.

i thought alot of aftermarket cams are similar to stock before vtak kicks in yazz? no?

fuel injectors as the guy showed in the bosch vs rc injector thread...


gsr vs LS tranny you will only have 400rpm difference while driving at 65MPH on the freeway...

doesnt hondata 300 have an individual gear tuning?
so you can tune your 5th gear to be UBER weak prius MPG smasher.
and 4th gear still tuned for drag cuz with LS and redline at 8500 it will still take you all the way up to 141MPH which should be enough for the drag before switching to 5th gear.

heres the calculator btw
http://www.zealautowerks.com/transcalc.php

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

buy a crz it got switches and sht

neverstop

yeah, the gsr cams are certainly too small but my goals aren't too crazy either, not shooting for 11's or something.

that is awesome info on the hondata! I had no idea it had that functionality. I've also been looking at nitrous and hondata is bad *** for nitrous control.

I have known a few guys on here who lost 5mpg+ going to itr cams. if I could find a cam with stock gsr lobes before vtec though that would be PERFECT. I don't see any cam lists though that show what the pre-vtec lobes are like?

If the fuel injectors are worth 5whp and I get 10-15whp from the increased displacment I'm pretty much there already.

I'm still on the fence about the gsr vs ls tranny. I already have the ls tranny and think I'd rather spend the $400 a good used gsr tranny would cost on a nitrous kit instead though.

neverstop

hahaha. I thought about getting a damn prius and spraying that bish with NOS! haha

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

ye here i thought i saw it lol
Fuel and ignition correction based on gear (from hondata s300 page)


skunk2 lists the specs for their cams here just click on the image

http://www.skunk2.com/mm5/merchant.m...ry_Code=CAMTUN


yah i donno where to find the stock cam specs for primary
they all show the same thing
heres closest i found
B18C5 Engine
intake exhaust
primary 1.3027in 1.2907in
mid 1.4514in 1.4304in
secondary 1.3674in 1.3658in

neverstop

thanks raverx, that's awesome! for some reason I hadn't thought of that, but if the non-vtec lobes are same as gsr then that would be ideal.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

there are companies that can grind you a custom cams as well.
endyn might be able to modify their bumpstix for you. ??? or some other company.

neverstop

I thought about that but I'm also trying not to spend a ton of money on this. I already have the built b20. If I can't hit my goal I'd probably just prefer to run GSR cams and spray a 50-75 shot on it. more cost effective.

h23V

get the skunk2 tuner series the low and mid are stock but the mid's are agressive or u can call delta cam of Tacoma washington and they can grind u cams 150 per cam and u can use them with stock valvespring and u can still have ur nitrous.

Natural Aspirations

Wait:
You estimate your LSV has 175hp? And estimate it runs a 14.2? I suspect its not tuned.

And you want someone to estimate your B20 will make 200hp?

Cams and gearing are the 2 biggest improvements you can make to you engine and you wish to forgo them both?

Chances are if any of your "BOYS" lost 5mpg mpg with ITR cams I am sure they spent no time having them tuned either.

There is a B20 build thread on here go there and read and see what some others have done and gotten as a result.

neverstop

calm down bud, I've run it against comparable cars that ran 14.0 and got pulled by a car length or so, not super accurate obviously but have been too busy to go to the track lately, here is my ls vtec dyno sheet from DNR and this is with rings that are in pretty bad shape and terrible alignment as well as a blown main shaft bearing in the tranny. honestly they didn't do that great of a tune either.

maybe my goal is different from yours, I don't need you to like or accept what i'm doing. Maybe it could be faster but that is not my priority. If you have no help to offer I don't understand why you waste your time.

the "boy" on here who lost 5mpg has built many many hondas, no need to name him but he is super cool and has been awesome on this board for a long time. his best mpg was with gsr cams and some bolts on in his integra and it was 38mpg, then with itr cams it was 30mpg.

I've read the b20 thread many times, no high compresion b20 dynos with gsr cams that I could find.

slick1851

Thread fails hard


LS trannys are not that great for turbo cars.....


Do you know or understand what a engine efficiency range is? That =better times and better mpg


Running over or under it waste gas belive it or not

And I know alot of guys who "built" decently cars that barley know what there talking about


Your gonna be starving the motor with cams designed for a 1.8 liter


Why don't people gear or tune there cars?



Gearing like Mfactory stuff is a bigger drastic change than a header, it improve throttle response and moves you into your power band

neverstop

this is what I was trying to avoid, what I was hoping to find was if anyone had done anything like this before or what the best whp put down with gsr cams has been or get helpful info not argue or deal with the normal ht bs.

i know the cams are small, I said that already, so repeating what was already said is not helpful. Remember the goal here.
the question isn't if they're small or not, the question is:

are they too small to hit 200whp in a properly built b20?

the comment that some honda aftermarket cams have stock non-vtec lobes was helpful. Telling me to gear the car down with mfactory gears or that I don't tune my cars when I just posted the dyno sheet from when it was tuned is not helpful.

I understand what you're saying and I've had many cars with more aggressive gearing installed, not once has it helped my mpg. If more aggressive gearing was so good for mpg then why do cars come with such high gears in a day when top mpg is so key? If you look at most of the hypermile guys on here, most of them don't have b16 trannys in there. I can find many examples of guys on here with worse freeway mpg after moving to an itr tranny. We can argue back and forth but I'm keeping the ls tranny for now even though it is slower. I like having lower rpm on the freeway, I feel that I get the best mpg with it and for the money a nitrous kit is a better deal than a different final drive or tranny.

obviously the car would be faster with gearing and cams. My goal here isn't to just make something as fast as possible. I know that is what the other 99% of guys on here are doing but its not what i'm doing.

Natural Aspirations

Its been done in B16 cams so I see no reason it cannot be done with GSR. That being said the person who achieved this goal is a very experienced builder and tuner.

Your boy who lost 8mpg with ITR cams cannot tune or your leaving out some details, I can get better gas mileage out of S2 Pro2 cams with a B16 trans and 4.7FD. Its been proven that lower RPM doesn't necessarily give better MPG, I believe Aqufina has some back to back testing with his car.

The end point is that you have a certain set of parts available to use and are intent on using them, DO IT no one will stop you. It is just felt that what your doing isn't the most effective way to meet your goals, a lot dynos read completely different from another as well so its quite possible if you have a "happy dyno" where some read considerably lower. From the looks of your dyno you have a "happy dyno" as most stock ITR engines struggle for 177 HP

neverstop

thanks man, I'm not set on anything just looking for constructive, data-backed insight.

do you remember who did it with b16 cams? that would be SUPER helpful.

I'll look up Aqufina, that sounds like exactly the kind of data I have been searching on here for. If better gearing will help the mpg and acceleration then its win/win. I've read both sides of that argument and havn't found any objective data indicating that lower gearing helps mpg while my own personal experience with many other cars points that it doesn't but I'm not set on either view really if I can find data showing what is the truth.

probably is a happy dyno, but most bone stock itr's on that same dyno generally read about 175whp, you can see my thread for mods I have but others have put up similar numbers with gsr cams.

the guy I know who lost 8mpg has also been running with his AC on but I don't think that makes an 8mpg difference which was why I rounded it to 5mpg. But the point was that I have an example of someone losing mpg with itr cams. If aftermarket cams don't impact mpg though I'm more than happy to use some. I actually have a set of aftermarket cams here already.

what kind of mpg do you get out of that setup?

sounds like a pretty stout build, that's awesome you're doing >30mpg with it.

neverstop

if there is someone out there getting >40mpg with aftermarket cams I'd love to see it too, the only people I've found getting close to 40mpg are doing it with stock cams, which was the reason I had the goal of sticking to gsr cams. If my goal can be done with some better cams that would be even better.

negusjuda

200 whp with gsr cams not saying it cant be done but you better be a genius when it comes to building and tuning even with type r cams there arent very many people hitting the 200 whp in a b20vtec

kyden

my buddy is running brian crower stage 2's on his gsr with p30 pistons. we took a trip a few weeks ago, and he was getting 39mpg.

neverstop

damn... that's like 8mpg more than I would have expected. good info. mind sharing more info on his setup? tranny? chassis? whp?

Natural Aspirations

https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...5#post26361845

The reason most of the threads like this are met with less than helpful responses are due to them repeatedly popping up every day and with a little bit of searching you can find your answers.

neverstop

thanks for pulling that up, I searched for quite awhile and didn't find that. I didn't realize there were so many cams with stock non-vtec lobes.

lunatics209

iTrader: (1)

I get 40+ mpg with my stock ls-vtec that had ITR cams(GSR tranny). It made 192 whp and 132 torque. Before the tune running an ebay chip it was able to pull a 13.6. However I never attempted to run all motor after the tune cause it was also tuned with nitrous. So I say yes you can get 40 mpg with ITR cams.

Also is 12.1 compression even pump gas friendly?

kyden

gsr, 81.25mm jdm p30s, flat faced valves, tdm big tube header, gsr tranny. 95 integra. 186whp on a dyno dynamics.

neverstop

awesome info man, thanks. This stuff is encouraging. I don't want to stick with gsr cams but from what I'd seen it was the easiest way to achieve my mpg goals and since my whp goals are not real high.

was that 13.6 on street tires? I'm assuming that is in a relatively stripped eg hatch?

I'll have to throw in a thicker gasket and some other tricks to bring that compression down a touch for sure. We'll see what it ends up exactly once I cc the heads but its certainly on the limit for pump gas.