anjapower

I got my rota slipstreams with 205/50/16 avs es 100's last week. As tempting as it was to start driving hard on the new tires, I held back, especially since they felt pretty slick on turns.

I had read of the recommended 500 mile break-in period...to wear off the oil/silica compounds in brand new tires, but it seems these tires are still slick. TOO SLICK!! I've put on almost 600 miles on my tires since I got them and I am not impressed at all. In fact, I'm scared of them.

Today I took a familiar sharp turn at 40mph. I've done this before on my stock tires, and they've held up with not much complaining. Today when I did this with my yokos, my car's back end KICKED OUT!! It was extremely disconcerting to say the least. I had never experienced this type of oversteer ever....and didn't expect it from a FWD car. My car turned about 110 degrees to the left, but with some countersteering I was able to get it pointed in the right direction. I almost got t-boned by a car coming in the opposite direction.

Needless to say, I was extremely scared. I thought I was definitely gonna get into an accident. So I continue on my way to my friends' place. They both own EP3's as well. I told them about my close call, and that I didn't even think my yokos were that much stickier than my stock michelins. (I have driven very hard on the michelins, but only at speeds that were too fast have they exhibited any oversteer).

My friend with the EP3 rolling on stock tires offered to drive my car and lemme know his impressions. We went out for a short drive, and he took one turn spiritedly...and we heard the back end sliding. This turn would've exhibited NO drama from the stock tires, yet with the yokos my FWD civic starts to drift on every spirited turn.

I should add that I have a Type R rear swaybar, but I rarely ever experienced oversteer with the Michelins. And now, I am experiencing extremly dangerous and unpredicatable oversteer. What is going on? I had heard nothing but good things about these tires. I am seriously considering sending them back under Yoko's 30 day test drive warranty and getting some Azenis.

The only thing other thing I could think of is that I had mounted the rear tires on wrong (opposite rotational direction) and didn't find out until I had about 40 miles on them...they got switched around immediately. But this wouldn't cause the tires to go bad would it? Please help, WTH is wrong with these tires???

.RJ

They're probably not quite broken in yet.

And they're dry grip isnt that great.

Are you sure your tire pressure is correct?

Or you could autocross or go to the track and keep this off the streets.

eg_nezay

Maybe the tires were cold when you made that sharp turn or they are not broken in yet.
Cant say much about this tire since, Im an Azenis&Toyo user.

chunky

well, i have the 225/50/15 es100's and i'm pretty happy with them. they're hard to beat for an 80$ tire.

As for the oversteer - that happens when you go to stickier rubber sometimes. Basically, where you used to understeer through turns, now the front has more traction, so it grips, but the rear doesn't really get any additional traction from the additional grip b/c there is so little weight back there. And to exacerbate the issue, you have a 22mm rear sway bar.

I tell you what, send me the 22mm bar, and I'll send you my 19mm bar for free. :D

Just take some time and re-learn your car's limits. I had to totally re-learn how to drive my car from something as simple as a camber setting tweak. Now I can toast around turns full throttle, and the slightest bit of lift throttle will send the back end sailing out. It's fun.

but don't judge the es100's just yet, take some time to learn their qualities, and they do get better (just like any tire) as the tread depth goes down.

anjapower

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">They're probably not quite broken in yet.

And they're dry grip isnt that great.

Are you sure your tire pressure is correct?

Or you could autocross or go to the track and keep this off the streets.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hear that. I'm planning on an auto-x real soon to find out how this car will handle now.

Anyone know what I should run for tire pressures?

.RJ

start with 35psi front/rear.

anjapower

the incorrect mounting on the rears wouldn't have screwed up anything, would it have?

paikman

i guess AVS ES100's are ok...but honestly are a very crappy tire overall...at my shop i work at... basically for Yokohama AVS ES100's and Toyo Proxes FZ4, you are just paying for the name and a ok Z rated all season radial, because they definetely do not hold up once aggressive turning starts.

chunky

are you saying mounted backwards?

if so, yes, it would have a pretty big impact. . . .

anjapower

well not exactly...

I received my tires mounted and balanced on the wheels. Correctly mounted.

But when I put them on the car, in haste, I didn't realize that I had put the rear 2 wheels on wrong. They were spinning in the opposite rotational direction...I didn't realize this till 40-50 miles were up, at which point I swapped the rear left wheel with the rear right wheel.

RSXtypeS

I have the same tires and I haven't put close to 500 miles on them, and they grip great...i dunno what's up with yours though, I've already been to one AutoX with them and finished 5th in the DSP class...I've had no problems at all with these tires...

jdmjunky

good to hear that nothing happened to you but that's hella sweeeeeet - being able to break the back end loose like that on a FWD

time for some touge

darkvibe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">start with 35psi front/rear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

isn't 30 psi what honda recommends? and on a tire thats wider than the stock 195 width wouldnt you go slightly lower? Forgive the newb question. I'm just thinking that tire pressure * size of contact patch = weight the tire supports. So a higher pressure would reduce the size of the contact patch.

While we're on the subjust i always wondered how you determine correct tire pressure if you get aftermarket tires.

ArcticFreeze

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by paikman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i guess AVS ES100's are ok...but honestly are a very crappy tire overall...at my shop i work at... basically for Yokohama AVS ES100's and Toyo Proxes FZ4, you are just paying for the name and a ok Z rated all season radial, because they definetely do not hold up once aggressive turning starts.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow, that's amazing that you think that. The ES100 is a thousand times better than the FZ4. It's awesome in the wet, and grips well enough in the dry.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by darkvibe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">isn't 30 psi what honda recommends? and on a tire thats wider than the stock 195 width wouldnt you go slightly lower? Forgive the newb question. I'm just thinking that tire pressure * size of contact patch = weight the tire supports. So a higher pressure would reduce the size of the contact patch.

While we're on the subjust i always wondered how you determine correct tire pressure if you get aftermarket tires.</TD></TR></TABLE>

32-35psi is a good starting point. You will need to tune them to your car and type of driving. For autocross you absolutely need higher pressures to prevent sidewalls rolling over.

And just because there's more pressure in the tire doesnt mean it can support a higher load.

paikman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ArcticFreeze &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Wow, that's amazing that you think that. The ES100 is a thousand times better than the FZ4. It's awesome in the wet, and grips well enough in the dry.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Eh i dunno..im used to T1-S and RA-1 so i guess my opinions are skewed.

chunky

I would put the t-1s & the es100's on the same plane.

T1s has slightly higher grip, es100 has slightly higher treadlife, and they're both awesome in the rain.

My favorite quality of the es100 is their breakaway qualities. It's very smooth, and very easy to recover from a driver mistake. That's good to have if you are going to drive at the limit of traction on the street from time to time. I know that I personally have managed to get all four wheels sliding with the car pointed at the wrong angle and then managed to recover in time to avoid any curbs or spinouts. Not every tire can buy you that sort of time. of course, i do have a pretty wide tire, which makes things less hairy at the limit anyway.

btw acticfreeze:

I'm loving that rear sway bar! that sway bar + -2 camber up front + 35psi front/40 rear = golden.

anjapower

these tires are going back. i didn't push them that hard since that incident, but now with nearly 800 miles, the back end is wanting to come out at the drop of a hat. What a disappointment.

chunky

i doubt that different tires will make a difference unless you go to something less sticky.

splitime

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by anjapower &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">these tires are going back. i didn't push them that hard since that incident, but now with nearly 800 miles, the back end is wanting to come out at the drop of a hat. What a disappointment. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Im going to say its driver error in this case. Listen to what RJ said, your pressures and new found grip are allowing that larger rear swaybar to cause oversteer. If you want to try and stabalize that some, try a little higher psi in the front and a little lower in the rear. And don't lift off the throttle in a turn, it'll just make it come out faster. People put larger bars on their cars to get exactly what you are "fearing".

anjapower

yea but this seems like its coming out WAY too early. tail sliding out on a moderate turn taken at slightly higher speeds?? No way, I bet even a rear-wheel drive car wouldn't do this.

I had driven a rwd car a few years ago for quite a while, and it never did anything like this.

splitime

Shrug, I've dragged the es100s, I've AutoX'd them and I've tracked them now. Love them in all conditions and havent had anything suprising out of them. I oversteer, but thats because I've setup the car to do that.

Really check your tire pressures, leave the rear softer and it'll grab more, (fight oversteer).

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by anjapower &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had driven a rwd car a few years ago for quite a while, and it never did anything like this. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Most RWD cars (stock) will still push at corner entry. And only get loose unless you have enough torque to provoke the rear tires into spinning, and use it at the wrong time.

I still think you're doing something wrong.

anjapower

i'll do that right now. i'll post the current pressures.

anjapower

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Most RWD cars (stock) will still push at corner entry. And only get loose unless you have enough torque to provoke the rear tires into spinning, and use it at the wrong time.

I still think you're doing something wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>

took the tire pressures. 33 in both tires up front. 33 in left rear, 34 in right rear. Car had been sitting for 2hrs.

I was thinking the same until I took another turn last night at maybe 20 mph in an empty parking lot. The tail-end was sliding just on that! It was obviously not nearly as bad as the 40mph one in the first post, but still bad enough to make me wanna switch.


Modified by anjapower at 6:41 PM 9/22/2003