helping a friend continued
01-08-2005, 03:38 PM
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helping a friend
My friend has an nsx and he wants power and money is really an object for him. Can you give me some ideas for him. I know he wants to go with a turbo. I have a 91 hatch and don't know to much about nsx's. So whats probably the best turbo to go w/ and cams pistons etc,....
Lets all try to give a hand.
Lets all try to give a hand.
01-09-2005, 07:19 AM
#2
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Re: helping a friend (NYCHUSLA)
Since money is really an object for him, he shouldn't be spending it on mods for an NSX.
For one thing, it's money he'll never see again. Ever.
For another thing, NSX mods are much more expensive than mods for other cars.
For yet another thing, if he goes turbo, he's taking a big financial risk on reliability, too. It's not uncommon for turbocharged NSX engines to blow up. Replacing an NSX engine is a very expensive proposition.
He would be MUCH better off buying a cheap project car to modify. (Even better, buy a car that's already modded, and let someone else take the hit on the cost of the mods.)
For one thing, it's money he'll never see again. Ever.
For another thing, NSX mods are much more expensive than mods for other cars.
For yet another thing, if he goes turbo, he's taking a big financial risk on reliability, too. It's not uncommon for turbocharged NSX engines to blow up. Replacing an NSX engine is a very expensive proposition.
He would be MUCH better off buying a cheap project car to modify. (Even better, buy a car that's already modded, and let someone else take the hit on the cost of the mods.)
01-09-2005, 02:01 PM
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Re: helping a friend (nsxtasy)
It really depends on how you build the Turbo NSX. If you take the time and spend the money to build it properly, I've seen a 800hp NSXs ~500 - 600 Reliable.
01-09-2005, 03:55 PM
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Re: helping a friend (NYCHUSLA)
No matter what route he goes, expect to spend 5-10k. Supercharging seems to be the more popular route on the NSX. Some of the turbo kits of the past have had some issues on this car.
01-10-2005, 08:43 AM
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helping a friend continued
My friend has an nsx and he wants power and money <U></U>isn't really an object for him. Turbo isn't the way to go so I 've heard? Someone said supercharger? Because of relability. Are turbos really that unreliable on nsx's. What do you think I should do? Remember money isn't really an object my friend makes about 400,000 a year. Thanx for the help!!!!
01-10-2005, 10:05 AM
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Re: helping a friend continued (NYCHUSLA)
If money is not an object then go with factorX turbo. I've gotten a ride in it and it is just rideculously fast.
http://www.factorxengineering.com
Their cars have run numerous 11 sec 1/4 passes and some 10 sec.
http://www.factorxengineering.com
Their cars have run numerous 11 sec 1/4 passes and some 10 sec.
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01-10-2005, 10:33 AM
#8
El Chico
Re: helping a friend continued (NYCHUSLA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NYCHUSLA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My friend has an nsx and he wants power and money <U></U>isn't really an object for him. Turbo isn't the way to go so I 've heard? Someone said supercharger? Because of relability. Are turbos really that unreliable on nsx's. What do you think I should do? Remember money isn't really an object my friend makes about 400,000 a year. Thanx for the help!!!! </TD></TR></TABLE>
Tell your friend to buy a 996 Turbo.
Why aren't turbo'ed NSX's reliable?
It takes a great deal of time tuning a turbo car as it is, let alone one that wasn't meant to be turbo'ed.
My guess is that people turbocharging NSX's are either doing so with stock, high compression blocks and getting overzealous with the Q or just plain not putting the time and energy into tuning them properly. This is however just my speculation. Freak accidents aren't out of the question but I'd say freak accidents here and there wouldn't incite NSXTASY to claim they were unreliable.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Tell your friend to buy a 996 Turbo.
Why aren't turbo'ed NSX's reliable?
It takes a great deal of time tuning a turbo car as it is, let alone one that wasn't meant to be turbo'ed.
My guess is that people turbocharging NSX's are either doing so with stock, high compression blocks and getting overzealous with the Q or just plain not putting the time and energy into tuning them properly. This is however just my speculation. Freak accidents aren't out of the question but I'd say freak accidents here and there wouldn't incite NSXTASY to claim they were unreliable.
01-10-2005, 10:55 AM
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Re: helping a friend continued (NYCHUSLA)
Turbos dont work well with STOCK NSX blocks. The cylindar walls are too thin to handle any boost above ~7psi reliable. With the proper build, not just putting a block gaurd, you can make a BADASS NSX. It's just like any honda motor, if you build it properly, you can put down mad power.
Look at Papdakis 6sec civic. He runs a NSX motor with something like ~1200hp. Yup they can't handle boost.
Look at Papdakis 6sec civic. He runs a NSX motor with something like ~1200hp. Yup they can't handle boost.
01-10-2005, 11:14 AM
#10
El Chico
Re: helping a friend continued (beandip)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beandip »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Turbos dont work well with STOCK NSX blocks. The cylindar walls are too thin to handle any boost above ~7psi reliable. With the proper build, not just putting a block gaurd, you can make a BADASS NSX. It's just like any honda motor, if you build it properly, you can put down mad power. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You had me until you said, "mad power."
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Look at Papdakis 6sec civic. He runs a NSX motor with something like ~1200hp. Yup they can't handle boost. </TD></TR></TABLE>
They can but that is true of any car that has been built.
There are plenty of cars that don't need an entirely rebuilt bottom end to run more boost. I believe that was his sentiment.
You had me until you said, "mad power."
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Look at Papdakis 6sec civic. He runs a NSX motor with something like ~1200hp. Yup they can't handle boost.
</TD></TR></TABLE>They can but that is true of any car that has been built.
There are plenty of cars that don't need an entirely rebuilt bottom end to run more boost. I believe that was his sentiment.
01-10-2005, 11:54 AM
#11
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Re: helping a friend continued (Knightsport et al)
Originally Posted by NYCHUSLA
My friend has an nsx and he wants power and money is really an object for him. Can you give me some ideas for him. I know he wants to go with a turbo. I have a 91 hatch and don't know to much about nsx's. So whats probably the best turbo to go w/ and cams pistons etc,....
Lets all try to give a hand.
Lets all try to give a hand.
Originally Posted by NYCHUSLA
My friend has an nsx and he wants power and money <U></U>isn't really an object for him. Turbo isn't the way to go so I 've heard? Someone said supercharger? Because of relability. Are turbos really that unreliable on nsx's. What do you think I should do? Remember money isn't really an object my friend makes about 400,000 a year. Thanx for the help!!!!
Originally Posted by NYCHUSLA
I don't have a friend with an NSX, and I was just jerking you all around. Thanks for playing along!!!
Originally Posted by ak
If money is not an object then go with factorX turbo. I've gotten a ride in it and it is just rideculously fast.
Originally Posted by Knightsport
Why aren't turbo'ed NSX's reliable?
It takes a great deal of time tuning a turbo car as it is, let alone one that wasn't meant to be turbo'ed.
It takes a great deal of time tuning a turbo car as it is, let alone one that wasn't meant to be turbo'ed.
I don't know whether a supercharger is necessarily conceptually safer than a turbocharger. But look at it this way. Comptech has several hundred of their superchargers on NSXs. The early ones encountered various problems and growing pains. They were eventually solved, and their system was revised, to the point where the new ones are now pretty much "plug and play", without the need to do a lot of tuning to get it right. That setup is pretty reliable with the 6 psi boost. (The 9 psi boost setup doesn't have as many installations and Comptech doesn't warranty it... which should tell you something.)
That other supercharger system (not Comptech's) was installed in a few dozen NSXs, and there were many, many problems that arose, and are still arising. I'm sure that once it's been put into several hundreds of cars, those problems will get worked out, but it's not there now.
As for turbochargers, AFAIK there is no system that has been installed in as many as a few dozen. Each turbocharger installation is essentially a custom build, requiring its own tuning. And therein lie the problems and growing pains.
When you install aftermarket modifications, not only do you incur the cost of paying for the parts and installation, but you also incur a financial risk. The parts may come with a warranty, but usually that only covers the aftermarket parts themselves. If you install, say, a turbocharger, and your engine blows up, is the turbocharger manufacturer/installer going to pay for the replacement of your engine, or only buy you a new turbocharger, or not even that? You don't really know - but there's a very good chance that you will be footing the bill in the event that things go wrong. If you're putting in an intake that adds anywhere from -2 to +2 hp, or an exhaust/headers that add 10-20 hp, it might not affect anything else. But if you're adding 50-100 hp or more, then the things that go wrong can be very, very expensive things, like transmissions and engines.
Can you make "mad power" with an NSX engine? Yes, absolutely. Are you prepared to accept the risk that you might end up with a very expensive repair as a result? If you are, then by all means go ahead...
01-10-2005, 01:04 PM
#12
El Chico
Re: helping a friend continued (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Exactly. With any kind of forced induction, it takes a lot of tuning and trial and error to get everything exactly right - and along the way, you run risks of, well, things going wrong. Expensive things going wrong.
I don't know whether a supercharger is necessarily conceptually safer than a turbocharger. But look at it this way. Comptech has several hundred of their superchargers on NSXs. The early ones encountered various problems and growing pains. They were eventually solved, and their system was revised, to the point where the new ones are now pretty much "plug and play", without the need to do a lot of tuning to get it right. That setup is pretty reliable with the 6 psi boost. (The 9 psi boost setup doesn't have as many installations and Comptech doesn't warranty it... which should tell you something.)
That other supercharger system (not Comptech's) was installed in a few dozen NSXs, and there were many, many problems that arose, and are still arising. I'm sure that once it's been put into several hundreds of cars, those problems will get worked out, but it's not there now.
As for turbochargers, AFAIK there is no system that has been installed in as many as a few dozen. Each turbocharger installation is essentially a custom build, requiring its own tuning. And therein lie the problems and growing pains.
When you install aftermarket modifications, not only do you incur the cost of paying for the parts and installation, but you also incur a financial risk. The parts may come with a warranty, but usually that only covers the aftermarket parts themselves. If you install, say, a turbocharger, and your engine blows up, is the turbocharger manufacturer/installer going to pay for the replacement of your engine, or only buy you a new turbocharger, or not even that? You don't really know - but there's a very good chance that you will be footing the bill in the event that things go wrong. If you're putting in an intake that adds anywhere from -2 to +2 hp, or an exhaust/headers that add 10-20 hp, it might not affect anything else. But if you're adding 50-100 hp or more, then the things that go wrong can be very, very expensive things, like transmissions and engines.
Can you make "mad power" with an NSX engine? Yes, absolutely. Are you prepared to accept the risk that you might end up with a very expensive repair as a result? If you are, then by all means go ahead...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which is why you should probably get something that is already turbocharged if you want a turbo powered car.
It is simply a numbers game at this point.
Exactly. With any kind of forced induction, it takes a lot of tuning and trial and error to get everything exactly right - and along the way, you run risks of, well, things going wrong. Expensive things going wrong.
I don't know whether a supercharger is necessarily conceptually safer than a turbocharger. But look at it this way. Comptech has several hundred of their superchargers on NSXs. The early ones encountered various problems and growing pains. They were eventually solved, and their system was revised, to the point where the new ones are now pretty much "plug and play", without the need to do a lot of tuning to get it right. That setup is pretty reliable with the 6 psi boost. (The 9 psi boost setup doesn't have as many installations and Comptech doesn't warranty it... which should tell you something.)
That other supercharger system (not Comptech's) was installed in a few dozen NSXs, and there were many, many problems that arose, and are still arising. I'm sure that once it's been put into several hundreds of cars, those problems will get worked out, but it's not there now.
As for turbochargers, AFAIK there is no system that has been installed in as many as a few dozen. Each turbocharger installation is essentially a custom build, requiring its own tuning. And therein lie the problems and growing pains.
When you install aftermarket modifications, not only do you incur the cost of paying for the parts and installation, but you also incur a financial risk. The parts may come with a warranty, but usually that only covers the aftermarket parts themselves. If you install, say, a turbocharger, and your engine blows up, is the turbocharger manufacturer/installer going to pay for the replacement of your engine, or only buy you a new turbocharger, or not even that? You don't really know - but there's a very good chance that you will be footing the bill in the event that things go wrong. If you're putting in an intake that adds anywhere from -2 to +2 hp, or an exhaust/headers that add 10-20 hp, it might not affect anything else. But if you're adding 50-100 hp or more, then the things that go wrong can be very, very expensive things, like transmissions and engines.
Can you make "mad power" with an NSX engine? Yes, absolutely. Are you prepared to accept the risk that you might end up with a very expensive repair as a result? If you are, then by all means go ahead...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which is why you should probably get something that is already turbocharged if you want a turbo powered car.
It is simply a numbers game at this point.
01-11-2005, 07:17 AM
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Re: helping a friend continued (Knightsport)
My friend doesn't really know to much about cars anyway so maybe a turbo isn't the way to go for him. On the other hand If he wants to tune NA whats the way to go for a sick *** all motor nsx?
01-11-2005, 08:07 AM
#15
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Re: helping a friend continued (NYCHUSLA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NYCHUSLA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My friend doesn't really know to much about cars anyway so maybe a turbo isn't the way to go for him. On the other hand If he wants to tune NA whats the way to go for a sick *** all motor nsx? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Is this the friend for whom money IS an object, or the friend for whom money ISN'T an object?
</TD></TR></TABLE>Is this the friend for whom money IS an object, or the friend for whom money ISN'T an object?
01-11-2005, 08:42 AM
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Re: helping a friend continued (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Is this the friend for whom money IS an object, or the friend for whom money ISN'T an object?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats exactly what I'm saying. If money isn't an object WHO CARES. Build a badass NSX. Look this is what you do...
~$25k - $45k Pre '97 NSX
~$20k Factor X FX500 +
====================
~$45k - $65k for a Bad *** NSX ~500Hp Reliable
Daily 11sec 1/4 mile Runs
Is this the friend for whom money IS an object, or the friend for whom money ISN'T an object?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats exactly what I'm saying. If money isn't an object WHO CARES. Build a badass NSX. Look this is what you do...
~$25k - $45k Pre '97 NSX
~$20k Factor X FX500 +
====================
~$45k - $65k for a Bad *** NSX ~500Hp Reliable
Daily 11sec 1/4 mile Runs
01-11-2005, 08:43 AM
#17
El Chico
Re: helping a friend continued (NYCHUSLA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NYCHUSLA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My friend doesn't really know to much about cars anyway so maybe a turbo isn't the way to go for him. On the other hand If he wants to tune NA whats the way to go for a sick *** all motor nsx? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Tell your friend to sign up to Honda-Tech.
Better yet, tell your friend to buy a car that is fast stock.
If he makes $400k a year this shouldn't be a problem.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Tell your friend to sign up to Honda-Tech.
Better yet, tell your friend to buy a car that is fast stock.
If he makes $400k a year this shouldn't be a problem.
01-11-2005, 09:13 AM
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Re: helping a friend (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For yet another thing, if he goes turbo, he's taking a big financial risk on reliability, too. It's not uncommon for turbocharged NSX engines to blow up. let someone else take the hit on the cost of the mods.)
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is misleading. What turbo engines that you know of have blown up due to the turbo system? Engines don't fail from turbos any more or less than they would from any other non-standard induction enhancement - they fail primarily from inadequate engine management.
Gene's engine failure was well-publicized but that would appear to have something fundamental wrong with the engine rebuild, not caused by the turbo system per se.
The one in NE that went "bang" on the dyno, was as a result of using the incorrect plugs where the tip was blown off jamming the valve - this could have happened with any boost kit and a case of someone not knowing what they were doing. (anyone with FI experience would have been running copper plugs) The actual engine bottom end was fine although the owner elected for total rebuild to sustain high boost application going forward.
The NSXmodified "system" cannot truly be justified as a kit and was a piece of junk with obvious issues - yes, that did lead to engine failures but is neither currently available or was ever really a serious consideration for anyone who knew anything about FI systems.
I don't know of any other engine failures associated with either PANSX or FactorX - even CarTech systems engine failures are rare - they had more issues back in the old days with the Aerodyne turbo failures, not so much engine failures - & even those were due primarily to mis-application, driving beyond their intended boost range.
Bottom line is that it is not a question of the method of charge modification, so much as how the engine management is accommodated: piggy-back controllers to the OEM ECM are simply not effective, but replacement ECM's, whether AEM, MOTEC, Electromotive or others are all serious valid replacements today for the OEM. So whether a super-charger or turbo, installation of a well-tuned ECM (note the important proviso) will be quite reliable even on stock engine block up to about 8 lbs. Anything beyond that will require engine modifications.
I've driven a "9lb High Boost" Comptech kit and it doesn't compare power-wise to an 8 lb turbo (also driven) especially in the mid-range torque. The number of Comptechs out there does validate that the engine internals are certainly comfortable of running consistently to at least 6 lbs of boost - there is no reason why a turbo should be any different, or even a Basch which has suffered a substantial amount of engine failure (caused by inadequate mis-management of fuel & timing control - since apparently resolved with the latest SS box, or better the AEM) Because of cost, exacerbated by the limited market of the NSX, tuners have been searching for a low-cost piggy-back controller but they have literally ALL failed miserably.
Boost is Boost - it's how you mange it that is critical. The three readily commercially available turbo systems on the market - PANSX, FactorX, Cartech - all have that covered with an appropriate ECM - then it's up to the user to have it tuned properly to avoid running it in a dangerous condition.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is misleading. What turbo engines that you know of have blown up due to the turbo system? Engines don't fail from turbos any more or less than they would from any other non-standard induction enhancement - they fail primarily from inadequate engine management.
Gene's engine failure was well-publicized but that would appear to have something fundamental wrong with the engine rebuild, not caused by the turbo system per se.
The one in NE that went "bang" on the dyno, was as a result of using the incorrect plugs where the tip was blown off jamming the valve - this could have happened with any boost kit and a case of someone not knowing what they were doing. (anyone with FI experience would have been running copper plugs) The actual engine bottom end was fine although the owner elected for total rebuild to sustain high boost application going forward.
The NSXmodified "system" cannot truly be justified as a kit and was a piece of junk with obvious issues - yes, that did lead to engine failures but is neither currently available or was ever really a serious consideration for anyone who knew anything about FI systems.
I don't know of any other engine failures associated with either PANSX or FactorX - even CarTech systems engine failures are rare - they had more issues back in the old days with the Aerodyne turbo failures, not so much engine failures - & even those were due primarily to mis-application, driving beyond their intended boost range.
Bottom line is that it is not a question of the method of charge modification, so much as how the engine management is accommodated: piggy-back controllers to the OEM ECM are simply not effective, but replacement ECM's, whether AEM, MOTEC, Electromotive or others are all serious valid replacements today for the OEM. So whether a super-charger or turbo, installation of a well-tuned ECM (note the important proviso) will be quite reliable even on stock engine block up to about 8 lbs. Anything beyond that will require engine modifications.
I've driven a "9lb High Boost" Comptech kit and it doesn't compare power-wise to an 8 lb turbo (also driven) especially in the mid-range torque. The number of Comptechs out there does validate that the engine internals are certainly comfortable of running consistently to at least 6 lbs of boost - there is no reason why a turbo should be any different, or even a Basch which has suffered a substantial amount of engine failure (caused by inadequate mis-management of fuel & timing control - since apparently resolved with the latest SS box, or better the AEM) Because of cost, exacerbated by the limited market of the NSX, tuners have been searching for a low-cost piggy-back controller but they have literally ALL failed miserably.
Boost is Boost - it's how you mange it that is critical. The three readily commercially available turbo systems on the market - PANSX, FactorX, Cartech - all have that covered with an appropriate ECM - then it's up to the user to have it tuned properly to avoid running it in a dangerous condition.
01-11-2005, 09:13 AM
#19
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Re: helping a friend continued (beandip)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beandip »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Reliable</TD></TR></TABLE>
^ ^ ^ - has not yet been demonstrated. If anything, the opposite has...
^ ^ ^ - has not yet been demonstrated. If anything, the opposite has...
01-11-2005, 09:19 AM
#20
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Re: helping a friend continued (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
^ ^ ^ - has not yet been demonstrated. If anything, the opposite has...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What example are you saying is demonstration of unreliability? I would possibly agree that jury may be out on being PROVEN reliable due to low sample size & time but I would contest the unreliable statement
Modified by D'Ecosse at 10:33 AM 1/11/2005
^ ^ ^ - has not yet been demonstrated. If anything, the opposite has...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What example are you saying is demonstration of unreliability? I would possibly agree that jury may be out on being PROVEN reliable due to low sample size & time but I would contest the unreliable statement
Modified by D'Ecosse at 10:33 AM 1/11/2005
01-11-2005, 09:23 AM
#21
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Re: helping a friend (D'Ecosse)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D’Ecosse »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Boost is Boost - it's how you mange it that is critical. The three readily commercially available turbo systems on the market - PANSX, FactorX, Cartech - all have that covered with an appropriate ECM - then it's up to the user to have it tuned properly to avoid running it in a dangerous condition.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which confirms exactly what I was saying, about taking on the financial risk of the mods and any problems they encounter. Thanks for confirming that it CAN be run in a dangerous condition, as you put it, and for mentioning some of the ways in which failures have occurred.
It's not that any particular system is inherently UNreliable; it's just that it takes a lot of installations to get the "bugs" out, especially to identify and fix the kinds of problems that happen only under certain circumstances. The Comptech 6 psi supercharger has so many installations (several hundred) that it has accomplished this. As you note, the Basch supercharger is now improving on its level of reliability, after 30-50 or more installations, I believe. The turbo systems may reach that point when there are a lot of identical examples out there. But my understanding is that they're not there yet.
How many NSXs of each turbo system - broken down by type (Factor X has more than one level, I believe) have been installed and are currently running?
Which confirms exactly what I was saying, about taking on the financial risk of the mods and any problems they encounter. Thanks for confirming that it CAN be run in a dangerous condition, as you put it, and for mentioning some of the ways in which failures have occurred.
It's not that any particular system is inherently UNreliable; it's just that it takes a lot of installations to get the "bugs" out, especially to identify and fix the kinds of problems that happen only under certain circumstances. The Comptech 6 psi supercharger has so many installations (several hundred) that it has accomplished this. As you note, the Basch supercharger is now improving on its level of reliability, after 30-50 or more installations, I believe. The turbo systems may reach that point when there are a lot of identical examples out there. But my understanding is that they're not there yet.
How many NSXs of each turbo system - broken down by type (Factor X has more than one level, I believe) have been installed and are currently running?
01-11-2005, 09:31 AM
#22
El Chico
Re: helping a friend (D'Ecosse)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D’Ecosse »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is misleading. What turbo engines that you know of have blown up due to the turbo system? Engines don't fail from turbos any more or less than they would from any other non-standard induction enhancement - they fail primarily from inadequate engine management.
Gene's engine failure was well-publicized but that would appear to have something fundamental wrong with the engine rebuild, not caused by the turbo system per se.
The one in NE that went "bang" on the dyno, was as a result of using the incorrect plugs where the tip was blown off jamming the valve - this could have happened with any boost kit and a case of someone not knowing what they were doing. (anyone with FI experience would have been running copper plugs) The actual engine bottom end was fine although the owner elected for total rebuild to sustain high boost application going forward.
The NSXmodified "system" cannot truly be justified as a kit and was a piece of junk with obvious issues - yes, that did lead to engine failures but is neither currently available or was ever really a serious consideration for anyone who knew anything about FI systems.
I don't know of any other engine failures associated with either PANSX or FactorX - even CarTech systems engine failures are rare - they had more issues back in the old days with the Aerodyne turbo failures, not so much engine failures - & even those were due primarily to mis-application, driving beyond their intended boost range.
Bottom line is that it is not a question of the method of charge modification, so much as how the engine management is accommodated: piggy-back controllers to the OEM ECM are simply not effective, but replacement ECM's, whether AEM, MOTEC, Electromotive or others are all serious valid replacements today for the OEM. So whether a super-charger or turbo, installation of a well-tuned ECM (note the important proviso) will be quite reliable even on stock engine block up to about 8 lbs. Anything beyond that will require engine modifications.
I've driven a "9lb High Boost" Comptech kit and it doesn't compare power-wise to an 8 lb turbo (also driven) especially in the mid-range torque. The number of Comptechs out there does validate that the engine internals are certainly comfortable of running consistently to at least 6 lbs of boost - there is no reason why a turbo should be any different, or even a Basch which has suffered a substantial amount of engine failure (caused by inadequate mis-management of fuel & timing control - since apparently resolved with the latest SS box, or better the AEM) Because of cost, exacerbated by the limited market of the NSX, tuners have been searching for a low-cost piggy-back controller but they have literally ALL failed miserably.
Boost is Boost - it's how you mange it that is critical. The three readily commercially available turbo systems on the market - PANSX, FactorX, Cartech - all have that covered with an appropriate ECM - then it's up to the user to have it tuned properly to avoid running it in a dangerous condition.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
We have alreadt noted that boosted engine failures are due to a lack in tuning or lack of knowledge.
Thank you though.
This is misleading. What turbo engines that you know of have blown up due to the turbo system? Engines don't fail from turbos any more or less than they would from any other non-standard induction enhancement - they fail primarily from inadequate engine management.
Gene's engine failure was well-publicized but that would appear to have something fundamental wrong with the engine rebuild, not caused by the turbo system per se.
The one in NE that went "bang" on the dyno, was as a result of using the incorrect plugs where the tip was blown off jamming the valve - this could have happened with any boost kit and a case of someone not knowing what they were doing. (anyone with FI experience would have been running copper plugs) The actual engine bottom end was fine although the owner elected for total rebuild to sustain high boost application going forward.
The NSXmodified "system" cannot truly be justified as a kit and was a piece of junk with obvious issues - yes, that did lead to engine failures but is neither currently available or was ever really a serious consideration for anyone who knew anything about FI systems.
I don't know of any other engine failures associated with either PANSX or FactorX - even CarTech systems engine failures are rare - they had more issues back in the old days with the Aerodyne turbo failures, not so much engine failures - & even those were due primarily to mis-application, driving beyond their intended boost range.
Bottom line is that it is not a question of the method of charge modification, so much as how the engine management is accommodated: piggy-back controllers to the OEM ECM are simply not effective, but replacement ECM's, whether AEM, MOTEC, Electromotive or others are all serious valid replacements today for the OEM. So whether a super-charger or turbo, installation of a well-tuned ECM (note the important proviso) will be quite reliable even on stock engine block up to about 8 lbs. Anything beyond that will require engine modifications.
I've driven a "9lb High Boost" Comptech kit and it doesn't compare power-wise to an 8 lb turbo (also driven) especially in the mid-range torque. The number of Comptechs out there does validate that the engine internals are certainly comfortable of running consistently to at least 6 lbs of boost - there is no reason why a turbo should be any different, or even a Basch which has suffered a substantial amount of engine failure (caused by inadequate mis-management of fuel & timing control - since apparently resolved with the latest SS box, or better the AEM) Because of cost, exacerbated by the limited market of the NSX, tuners have been searching for a low-cost piggy-back controller but they have literally ALL failed miserably.
Boost is Boost - it's how you mange it that is critical. The three readily commercially available turbo systems on the market - PANSX, FactorX, Cartech - all have that covered with an appropriate ECM - then it's up to the user to have it tuned properly to avoid running it in a dangerous condition.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
We have alreadt noted that boosted engine failures are due to a lack in tuning or lack of knowledge.
Thank you though.
01-11-2005, 09:54 AM
#23
H-T Order of Merit
Re: helping a friend (Knightsport)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knightsport »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We have alreadt noted that boosted engine failures are due to a lack in tuning or lack of knowledge.
Thank you though.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Awww, c'mon, Knightie... don't you want to engage in endless, pointless discussions to debate what NYCHUSLA should tell his two imaginary "friends"?
Thank you though.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Awww, c'mon, Knightie... don't you want to engage in endless, pointless discussions to debate what NYCHUSLA should tell his two imaginary "friends"?
01-11-2005, 10:13 AM
#24
El Chico
Re: helping a friend (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Awww, c'mon, Knightie... don't you want to engage in endless, pointless discussions to debate what NYCHUSLA should tell his two imaginary "friends"?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Amazingly enough for me, I do not.
Awww, c'mon, Knightie... don't you want to engage in endless, pointless discussions to debate what NYCHUSLA should tell his two imaginary "friends"?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Amazingly enough for me, I do not.
01-11-2005, 12:30 PM
#25
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Re: helping a friend (Knightsport)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knightsport »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Amazingly enough for me, I do not. </TD></TR></TABLE>
LMAO Here here, Just lock this thread and move on.
IBTL
Amazingly enough for me, I do not.
</TD></TR></TABLE>LMAO Here here, Just lock this thread and move on.
IBTL