lanceh

ok, here's a book about my experiences with JIC. last november a group buy was set up for the purchase of the JIC FLTA2-RS suspension. the FLTA2 is their top of the line 'race' coilover and the RS package starts with that suspension and then allows you to pick custom spring rates (rates for the FLT A2 for a dc2 are 10k/7k) and the shocks would be valved to match those chosen spring rates. sounds like the perfect setup, a custom suspension for less than the price of an off the shelf setup. sounds too good to be true and we all know what that means.

since this was a custom job the work would be done in japan by JIC and then shipped to JIC US then shipped to the vendor who set up the group buy and then shipped to me so it would take a few months. no problem at all since the car was gonna be in storage until at least april. i told them i wanted 12k/14k springs and the valving to match those rates. for anyone who doesn't want to do the math 12k/14k = 670lbs/780lbs

it was probably sometime in late february or early march when the suspension finally arrived and during that time i had made arrangements with crx lee, who works for koni, to dyno the shocks for me since he has been offering this service for some time now. so off they go to koni a few days after i received them. before i sent them off i took them apart and checked the springs. the ones on the front sock had '12k' on them, looks like it was spray painted on, and the springs in the back didn't say anything at all.

a few days later i receive an IM from lee for me to call him because there was an issue with the shocks. when i call he tells me that they are having a very difficult time getting any sort of accurate reading because the shock seems extremely sensitive to heat. seems the oil in the shock is heating up so quickly that it's causing wacky reading on the dyno. he asked if they should stop now so i could return them. i'm thinking whoa i just bought these i don't want to return them and told him to please continue with dynoing the rest. he also sent me the dyno from the first shock, explained some things to me and ended by saying i would not even think of going with a spring higher than 600lbs/inch. this also doesn't sound good since both of the rates i asked for are much higher than this.

from that point on i was put in contact with gordon at koni who was the engineer actually performing the dyno tests. he restated what lee had said regarding the heat sensitivity and said they were about the worst shocks he's ever seen on a dyno. (please remember that lee offers the free shock dyno to anyone and many people in the RR forum have taken him up on this offer so they have dynoed many different brands of shocks.) he also mentioned he put one of the springs on their spring tester and it came out at to 'about 600lbs' and that without even testing the others was absolutely sure by the looks of them that all 4 were exactly the same rate. this really isn't good considering 600lbs is a bit less than 12k and significantly less than 14k.

here are the shock dyno's if anyone wants to take a look at them. compression on top and rebound below

settings 1 through 5 on one of the front shocks
http://tinyurl.com/3djnp

all 16 turns of adjustment on one of the front shocks in 4 click increments
http://tinyurl.com/yq8fy

setting 1 and 16 of each of the front shocks
http://tinyurl.com/3bagb

setting 1 and 16 of each of the back shocks
http://tinyurl.com/246hm

now i know next to nothing about reading shock dynos but what stands out to me is that in the first dyno there is no steady increase in stiffness (as one would expect). between settings 1 and 4 the stiffness actually goes down and from 4 to 16 the stiffness increases. also, the total change in compressions between least stiff and most stiff is almost nothing and the total change in rebound is nothing. and finally, the most telling thing to me is that the front shocks are stiffer than the rear shocks. this is the exact opposite from what i would expect since the rear spring rates i chose were stiffer than the front.

all this led me to the conclusion that these shocks were nothing more than stock FLTA2 shocks, which dyno's showed are crap, with different spring rates. WHICH, FROM WHAT THE SPRING TEST SHOWED, ARE THE WRONG RATES. now i paid extra for this 'custom' setup which is probably worse than the stock setup because the springs are too much for the shock valving. nice 'custom' setup.

back when i was doing my initial research on JIC in october/november i exchanged a few emails with someone at JIC US and one of the things i asked for was a shock dyno. i was told this wouldn't be a problem but would take a few days since they would be coming from japan. well they never showed up. now i know why. who would want that information floating around?

so now i contact the vendor and tell him the situation. he contacts JIC US and their response was "whatever it takes we'll fix the situation." so what i decide is i want the correct springs, the shocks valved correctly, i want dyno's of each shock to prove the work was properly done and i want this done within one week. i don't see why this would be a problem because they also told me since my shocks had never been installed they would prepare another set in stock and ship them out as soon as they get mine back. well after hearing my dyno request they tell the vendor the only way that can be accomplished is for them to be sent back to japan because they do not have the facilities to dyno them onsite which would take another 2 months. this is coming from a company who offers rebuilding/revalving of shocks in the US. HOW CAN YOU REBUILD/REVALVE A SHOCK AND NOT HAVE A DYNO TO TEST YOUR WORK???????

at this point i'm fed up with JIC and request a complete refund. this is a whole other story and i'm not even gonna get into. the vendor came through in the end but has a great deal of work to do when it comes to communicating with their customers.

this group buy involved a number of people on HT all of whom had a similar if not worse experience with their shocks. if any of them would like to add their experiences feel free. i'm just telling my side of the story.


[edit]
i was just looking back at my emails with gordon and he did test one of the front springs and one of the rear springs. so the statement that they were equal rates was not speculation
[/edit]


Modified by lanceh at 3:16 PM 5/28/2004

Chris93Si

Ughhh that's a bad situation, at least you figured it out before you got them on the car and got a full refund. Any idea what your going to go w/ now?

ZygSpeed

Sorry to hear about the problems Lance.

I just ordered another set of BCs to replace the ones that got damaged in my accident, mostly because I've been spoiled with a great suspension setup and the Lowdowns on the car right now don'r cut it for me.

Maybe I'll have Lee and the Koni guys check out the Lowdowns and old BCs for some additional info ... Ed

yoshi234

yikes!

Big Phat R

That's so shitty.

This makes me wonder about my Spoon/Showa N1's now....

They came with 16K/14K springs which I switched front to back.

Maybe I should get mine dyno'ed too?

ZygSpeed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do the BCs compare to the Mugen Lowdowns? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't mean to jack Lance's thread on the JICs ... but the BCs (12KF/14KR) were great (settings of 5 up front and 8 rear), whereas the Lowdowns seem to neeedlessly "wobble" over bumps in an underdamped kind of way (even with their softer springs).

Maybe I'm just spoiled going from the BCs to the lowdowns.
Hence the idea of getting some actual shock dyno info. Ed

Todd00

The Mugen Lowdowns and the BC's are a completely different shock. One is more of a race setup and the other a glorified street setup.

BTW--Mugen provides a shock dyno with their N-Zeros and N-1s showing what they are.

Anyhow, too bad about the JICs. I'd send them back too.

lanceh

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would suspect probably a miscommunication somewhere down the line as to valving the RS's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

doubtful. the spring issue was consistent with everyone in the group buy who orderd the same thing i did, at least 5 different people. so my guess is the RS option is completely bogus and just gets you different spring rates.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris93Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Any idea what your going to go w/ now?</TD></TR></TABLE>

stay stock for the rest of the year and over the winter go with either revalved koni/GC or advance design.


Modified by lanceh at 1:05 PM 5/28/2004

spoon_ek9

sorry to hear your story, good luck to play with jic us importer.

anyway, i used to have the original flt-a2 before, from what i know, click 8(middle of total 15 click) would be the "normal" setup, and each click up and down is 10% increase or decrease. i can't really see that good in the pic, can you verify that in the graph?

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spoon_ek9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyway, i used to have the original flt-a2 before, from what i know, click 8(middle of total 15 click) would be the "normal" setup, and each click up and down is 10% increase or decrease</TD></TR></TABLE>

A 150% change in damping force over the range of shock adjustment?

1GreyTeg

Thanks for the book of information Lance.

Not that I was considering them but good to know for the future.

owen_the_soyboy

ugh,
nasty nasty story.... hope it gets sorted out and SOON !

spoon_ek9

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

A 150% change in damping force over the range of shock adjustment? </TD></TR></TABLE>

yea, thats what they said(in japan).

00MRSi

Sorry to hear about your shitty experience. Thanks for letting us know..

Chris N

To add to this:

I sent Lance's dyno charts to Clayton Goldsmith and Scott Zellner at King Motorsports.

The response, which I will paraphrase (Since I cannot find the letter right now) basically said that the front shocks were stronger than the rears, and that the rears were probably valved for HALF of what they should have been (14kg/mm).

What I concluded with their help (and some very helpful comments from Scott Rinde (RR98ITR) and Johnny Tran) was that we recieved 10k Front and 7k Rear valving.

Guess what - 10k/7k is the 'normal' FLT-A2 valving. We paid for the RS/custom jobbies that should have been custom valving. Sounds very fishy... were they thinking we would not know or check?

This happened to me, lance, mltdown, Budman, Asspenny, and Effect had another issue with these coilovers.

A company who says they can re-valve shocks and don't have a shock dyno - this is like pulling an engine out of car without tools, or calibrating test equipment by guessing.... its a joke.

Anyways, thanks Lance for the write-up. I knew it was coming... but had not prepared any info to add.

I think everyone got their money back or worked out a deal with the distributor we dealt with - and I think that distributor no longer has a business relationship with JIC.

Edit - FIVE sets of 12k/14k custom FLT-A2 RS all EXACTLY the same. That is NOT miscommunication. That is trickery, or just plain incompetence. Either way, totally TOTALLY unacceptable, and in no way our fault.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spoon_ek9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea, thats what they said(in japan).</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont know much about shocks, but that seems hard to believe.

spoon_ek9

well, like i said before, those guys who import jic don't know jack ****. especially the boss, he even said he played with suspension since he was three(heard from my friend) and saying he raced in japan professionally(this one i heard from him, what a joke) anyway, this shop is a super shaddy shop. i got friends got burn by them.

magic hat #9

it's these stories that makes me only want to buy american built coilovers because orders should be filled quicker and with less "miscommunication."

are there any america-based suspension manufacturers that build stuff for dc2 beside advance design and ground control?

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by magic hat #9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">are there any america-based suspension manufacturers that build stuff for dc2 beside advance design and ground control?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Koni 2812

MattD@Stoptech

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by magic hat #9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

are there any america-based suspension manufacturers that build stuff for dc2 beside advance design and ground control?</TD></TR></TABLE>

J00 t00l... GC shocks = advance design

There is always Koni. Off the shelf and revalved. Lee Grimes is a great guy to deal with....even if you don't have their shocks.




Modified by El Pollo Diablo at 3:28 PM 5/28/2004

Wai

Sorry about the bad experience.... I was like when you guys first told me about it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is always Koni. Off the shelf and revalved. Lee Grimes is a great guy to deal with....even if you don't have their shocks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Or buy the ones from the bigger, more reputated companies like Tein, Mugen, Spoon, BC, Zeal and etc. I'll have no worries about running 20K springs on Mugen N1 even if they don't come with any sort of documents to prove it.

MattD@Stoptech

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Or buy the ones from the bigger, more reputated companies like Tein, Mugen, Spoon, BC, Zeal and etc. I'll have no worries about running 20K springs on Mugen N1 even if they don't come with any sort of documents to prove it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wasn't t00 thrilled about my Zeal S6 dyno graphs...

Hybrid ctr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wasn't t00 thrilled about my Zeal S6 dyno graphs...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please share your experience

1GreyTeg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I wasn't t00 thrilled about my Zeal S6 dyno graphs...</TD></TR></TABLE>


Do tell, since these Were one of the sets that I Was looking at.

MattD@Stoptech

I shouldn't have said anything