Batoutahell

I took my R to Superior Acura in KC last Saturday to diagnose a very spongy brake pedal. My pedal is firm when the car is off, but when the engine is running, it's spongy with no braking power until it's almost on the floor. I've gauged how far the pedal sinks... it goes so far down next to the throttle that it's now impossible for me to heel/toe. In the past ays, I've gone through 2+ liters of fluid thinking it's air in the lines. I'm now convinced there's no air, and it's a mechanical failure in the system, so I took it to the dealer for warranty work.

The tech calls me this morning and says he found my problem - unevenly worn rear pads, and he wants me to swing by to check it out. Over my lunch hour, I swing by home to pick up a set of Panther+ rear pads, then head off to the dealership. When I get there, he shows me how my oem rear pads have worn unevenly, due to the fact that the pins on the pads were not aligned with the grooves in the pistons. OK, I'm not convinced this is causing a spongy brake pedal, but he insists that's my problem. I give him my carbotech pads and he grudgingly installs them, gives me the keys and says problem solved.

With the tech standing there, I get in the car, start the engine and push the brake pedal. It sinks to the floor like before. I quickly tell him the brake pedal is as bad as before, and he proceeds to offer a few explanations:

1) the carbotech pads need time to "mate" with the rear rotors, and over time the brake pedal will firm up;

2) the front rotors are pitted and scorched (from a couple of HPDE's), which is causing the spongy brakes;

3) there is some rust on the rotors, which causes the brake pedal to feel spongy; and

4) it's my imagination, the brakes are fine.

I'm already pretty stressed that my brake problem will get solved before I need to leave for the Expo, and the dealership knows I'm on a tight schedule to fix the car. It took some effort for me not to smack this kid for his stupid explanations.

Since Saturday, I've told 3 people in the service center, and 1 guys at the parts desk my opinion that I have a bad master cylinder, but they haven't checked it out yet. The MC is a part that takes a day to order in, so I'm gnashing my teeth each moment they waste not checking out the seals on the MC and ordering a replacement. Up to now, I've been charged $160 or so for the current diagnosis. I can only wait to see what's in store for tomorrow.

MK Ultra

It is your master cylinder. I've had the same problem. In fact, it's a fairly common problem with 3rd generation Integras.

That tech is a lazy imbecile. You should make a formal complaint with the dealership.

Chris N

MK, does this mean the MC needs to be replaced, or is it actually repairable?

.RJ

I had the same problem this weekend. Replaced the master cylinder trackside between sessions.

RJ

MK Ultra

It should be replaced. I'm not sure if it can be repaired, but I've not heard of anybody doing so.

.RJ

You can buy a remanufactured unit from advance auto, or at least thats where i got mine. It was a rebuilt OE piece, works great.

MK Ultra

Oh, yeah. Should've been more clear.

I mean I've never heard of a DIY MC repair kit, like there are for the wheel cylinders.

Batoutahell

After bleeding 3 times and double-checking all hoses 'n connections, my money has been on the MC all the time. I just can't convince the tech or the service manager yet. At least the service manager seems to be a more reasonable fellow.

I rebuilt the MC on my mr2 just a few weeks ago. Talk about a coincidence. The rebuild kit was only $20 and it works great. Thanks for the support. I really hope Acura wakes up and takes a closer look at my MC before it's too late to order one and get it installed for the expo.

Rodney

fugg em. just order it yourself and problem will be solved. sorry, i know you don't want to hear that....

BERT-O

Sounds like a ex-GM tech to me. (yes, this is a low blow, but I'm been in the business for 7 years, I know what goes arounds in these parks). To lazy and don't give a ****. Sorta common in the business. If anything, go directly to the dealership General Manager. I would advise you to set with a meeting(one to one) rather than a phone call.

Your problem does sound like a M/C, but can't say if it is for sure. Yes, it is a common for alot of Honda/Acura, no matter what generation.

Batoutahell

Nah, you're right. If they don't tell me by tomorrow afternoon that they're replacing the MC, I'll stop wringing my hands and order one myself. For the money, it'd probably be a rebuilt one from Autozone or the like. I won't want to pay Acura retail for one, especially since this should have been a *free* warranty replacement.

Asahi

Master Cyl would be my first guess. Since you are on a time contraint I would get one from a parts store and test this theory. I had the SAME problem in my Yellow R jim and it turned out to be the ABS system was bad. Go figure. The problem does sound identical. IF that is the case and they are not willing to work with you on warranty you could be out of luck Expo wise. Explain to them you will be asking them to cover "losses" if they don't work on it. Mine was fixed under warranty no questions asked even though they knew it had SS lines on it at one point

Asahi

Are you not under warranty Jim? Jeff and Casey know how to do a master Cyl install go get one from Napa and test the theory for free in a matter of minutes!

Trey

MK Ultra

Wow, cool.

B16GSR

Superior Acura has a bunch of dumb *** techs, just like they told me when i lowered my four door, i quote it sat the angle of the abs sensor off angle causing the abs to malfunction. no actually it was a bad sensor that they knocked loose when the reinstalled the new brake pads.

i figured after this i will take care of it all myself

CPR

When you say that the pedal goes to the floor, is this after standing on the brake pedal with regular pressure you apply at a stoplight or are you pressing on it as hard as you can until it reaches the absolute end of its travel?

phantomCIVIC[99]

i have the same problem but it only happens every once in a while. it happens alot though if i run my A/C. sometimes i will be sitting at a red light with my foot on the brake then the pedel slowly starts to run down to the floor, until its right above the floor. and if i let off of it alittle, my car rolls. it almost caused me to hit a couple cars cause i wasnt pressing it hard enough when it starts to move towards the floor. i think its my MC also but i havnt checked it out cause it will stop doing it and ill forget about it.

Batoutahell

When I apply moderate pressure like when I'm sitting at a stop light, the pedal is mushy and sinks lower than stock. If I really stand on it, it goes lower, pretty much to the floor.

95GSRVtec

Right after i read your 1st post I said his Master Cylinder is busted!! How can guys that do this for a living day in and day out not know this??? How do these AHOLES even get these jobs??? There also has been numerous complaints about Honda & Acura service recently

Batoutahell

Dave, the manager, called me a few minutes ago and told me that after driving my car quite a bit, he thinks it's NOT the master cylinder. His reasoning is that the pedal does not encounter resistance (braking power) at the normal height and then sink to the floor, which he says is the symptom of a bad MC. My pedal pretty much just goes mostly to the floor before you get any braking power.

That's his diagnosis, so giving him the benefit of the doubt, I gave him the green light to replace the rear pads with oem pads (since my oem pads were work unevenly), and he thinks this could solve my problem. I won't know until around 2:30 p.m. when they get the pads on and call me in to the dealership.

I will be downright shocked (but happy) if the new pads cure the problem. Frankly, I'm standing by my diagnosis of the MC, like everyone else on this board has come up with. I'll update the story this afternoon.

Willard

Please laugh in the managers face if the pads do not fix the problem and the master cylinder does.

.RJ

I had this problem last weekend. New MC fixed it. That and my car stopped about as well as a goddamn truck. Long pedal + poor stopping power = Bad MC.

RJ

Asahi

As much as I hate to disagree with everyone about the master cylinder I have to say that is is VERY VERY likely that it is NOT the master cyl. Woudl not kill them to test this and rule it out and put the part back on the shelf.

It IS very likely the ABS system. I had a problem that cannot sound anymore like this. It sounds like my old car is in kansas! When I had the problem it was under warranty and the dealer promptly changed the master cyl, called me and said it dod NOT fix it.

They changed the ABS system and BAM all better. I never found out if something was broken, a motor bruned up and bad sensor or air. I do know they changed the ABS pump and it was $400 ish in parts.

I think these techs are idiots but i hate to see jim come back with it wasn't the master cyl.

Regardless Jim laugh at the service guy when the brake pads don't fix it.

Trey

sgT

When I had this problem it turned out it was the ATE super blue fluid i was using
had apparently gotten too old, i flushed it with some generic dot3 and brakes
were mint. but it sounds to me like youve done that already, i hope you flushed
and didnt just bleed. and if thats the case then i would point to the MC next.

Batoutahell

Ok all, here's my update. Dave, the amicable service manager at the dealership, calls me up and says he talked to the regional Rep., who concluded that my Sparco pedal covers "altered the braking system" to such an extend that Acura would not warranty any brake parts such as the MC. I was speechless, then furious. I proceeded to explain that the Sparco pedal covers are snap-on covers, they aren't even bolted onto the pedals, let alone change the geometry of the pedal stroke or the piston travel. Arggghhh!!!

We hang up, and in a few minutes Dave calls back. He re-explained the innocuousness of the pedal covers to the regional Rep., and they changed their minds. They've ordered in a new MC and will install it for me tomorrow morning under warranty. Geez, I hope this solves my problem I'll lose my marbles if there's still a problem (like Trey suggests the abs).