Deanrocker

Growing weary of troubleshooting. 2000 Integra LS lost all power while driving recently. Since it was towed home, I've confirmed the following:
1. Battery is perfect. 12.7 V.
2. I have a strong spark at the end of each of the new plug wires. I also have 4 new spark plugs. Spark is present.
3.When loosening the nut at the end of the fuel rail, when turning key to "on" position. Fuel gushes out. Fuel appears present.
4. Arrows on cams are pointing up, and the crank pully is aligned with the notch. Timing appears perfect.

I guess this leaves "air." Could I be having problems with the vacuum? I know nothing about this equipment. Is there anything else I could be overlooking? I've checked every fuse as it relates to ignition and fuel. Still, nothing. Am wondering if it could be the ignition immobilizer, CKV sensor (crankshaft speed), or starter.

I really need some help with this as I'm losing my mind, and can't afford to two to a mechanic, let alone pay to have it fixed.

One final thing ... When the car stopped running and I got it back to the garage, I noticed the alternator belt was gone. I replaced that and the a/c belt while I had all the belts off. Also, when I turn the key, the first 2-3 seconds sound normal, but then it turns to more of a "whirring" sound. Don't know if this could be a failing starter.

Please advise.Don't want to waste time messing with dizzy, or coil pack if my spark is good, but some people suggest it could still be a bad coil pack, even though my spark appears strong at all 4 cylinders.

Deanrocker

I'm leaning now toward the CKV being damaged when the alt belt snapped. Is this possible? Can't find anywhere where the harness end of the CKV should be located in the car. Am guessing near the alternator??

DumpdEJ6

No check engine light?

By "lost all power" do you mean the car just shut off electrically, or that it started running rough and then died?

You also need compression, check compression in each cylinder. 8-10 cranks per cylinder, WOT.

Pull the distributor cap off and verify that your rotor is at the #1 cylinder plug wire at TDC. I've had the screw come loose in multiple hondas, it will still give spark, just to the wrong cylinders at the wrong times.

Try cranking while spraying starting fluid into the intake. If it doesn't run, you've effectively ruled out fuel issues completely.

Make sure you have a white/blue spark, if it's yellow or orange it may not be strong enough to ignite the air/fuel mixture under pressure in the cylinder.

Deanrocker

Vehicle stopped running and shut off. Lights and other stuff still worked.
I have compression on All 4 cylinders. I have spark at the end of all four ignition coils. I have four new spark plugs I have a spray of fuel at the rail when the key is turned the accessory position the cams are pointing up when the notch on the pulley crank is at top dead center. In other words I have fuel spark air compression and timing. I'm looking free answers that may relate two things like bad sensors. I watched a video where a temperature sensor kept a Ford vehicle from starting though it would crank. Maybe a failed ckv sensor?. I am looking for answers of that nature wind appears all the necessary items for vehicle to start our present. In fact I'm a little surprised and disappointed there is no such a forum dedicated to this very problem. I can't be the first Honda or Acura owner ever had all the major elements for vehicle to start present but it wouldn't due to some computer-related issues, correct?

maxwellmercer

Why not try bypassing the crank sensor. Free and quick.

.:FFS TechNet : CKF Bypass Trick :.

DumpdEJ6

When troubleshooting, you have to go step by step and rule things out COMPLETELY.

The only way to completely rule out fuel issues is to take the fuel system out of the equation COMPLETELY, by spraying starting fluid. Right now you have fuel at the rail, but you don't know what pressure. You also don't know if your injectors are spraying. You've ruled out fuel as an issue in your mind already, but that's not effectively diagnosing the issue.

You said you had compression, but how much? Anything less than 100-120 (IIRC) will not start. You also mentioned you had spark at the end of each coil, but Coil On Plug didn't come stock on 2000 Integras, so that's either a misnomer on your part or aftermarket, which needs to be disclosed. If you DON'T have coil on plug, did you try checking the distributor rotor like I mentioned? You haven't ruled out ignition timing if you haven't.


Take it step by step and rule everything out completely. If a sensor was bad, you would almost certainly get a code. You also never mentioned whether there were codes present.

DumpdEJ6

Also, try not to get frustrated. I know it's difficult at times like these, but an engine is just a bunch of parts, there is a REASON why it's not working. Just take it step by step.

I saw your other post about the rotor position, and you're over-complicating it I think. Rotate the engine over to TDC, marked on the crank. Verify the cam markings are lined up. Now take the distributor cap off, making note of which plug wire goes to #1 cylinder. (closest to the crank pulley) The rotor should be pointing directly at where the plug wire for #1 comes out of the cap. If it's not, then the rotor screw has either come loose or sheared off.

Deanrocker

Thanks. For starters, it's coil on plug. My son bought this used 7 years ago from 90-y-o, so I doubt it was altered. It's a '00 Integra LS. I have plenty of fuel pressure at the rail. Gushes out when key turned to on position. My focus right now is syncing timing. When the #1 piston and crankshaft pulley is TDC, the cams are straight up at 12 o'clock (as they should be), and then when I rotate the crankshaft pulley again, they are at 6 o'clock, (as they should be). HOWEVER, the more I crank, the more the cams get out of whack. In other words, after the first 4 times the piston/crankshaft pulley are TDC, the cams are aligned perfectly. But the more I turn it, the more they get out of whack. Next revolution cams are both at 1 o'clock. Then a couple more, 2 o'clock, then 3 o'clock, etc. SO ... the cams are in sync with the crankshaft pulley. Not quite sure how this happened or how to fix. Will consult field manual shortly, but am confident the car will NOT fire until I address this timing issue, assuming I can. Oh, compression is 120 psi on all 4 cylinders. No codes because battery was dead and since charged, has never fired, so I doubt there are codes, right? No check engine light because no running vehicle.

Deanrocker

I had everything aligned perfectly yesterday. Crakshaft pulley TDC. # 1 piston all the way up. Cam arrows both straight up. Ignitino mark on rotor directly in back of where the #1 spark plug would be connected (I put distributor back on and it was at 7 o'clock position on rotor/cap). When I turned over the key, it coughed like it was going to start. This is the closest it's been to starting since I've been messing with it. However, it quickly returned to the more typical chug and occasional "whirr." Why think that is is the engine not firing because the CKV sensor is telling it not to because the cams are no longer pointing up and in snyc with TDC on the #1 piston/crankshaft pulley.

I would like to think that's logical, and not overthinking it, but if you can tell me precisely why you think the above can not be accurate, kindly explain. Otherwise, I'm going to think it's an engine losing timing issue due to crankshaft pulley and cams only intermittently/rarely being in time when pistons are TDC.

Someone please confirm this statement to be true or false: For a 4-stroke engine to work, every time the #1 piston and crankshaft pulley are at TDC, the cams should both be pointing at 12 o'clock, or 6 o'clock. If not, there is a timing issue.

If the above is true, please tell me my next steps.

DumpdEJ6

The "whirr" noise you are getting could be the starter wearing out or the battery dying from all the attempted starts.

I am confused here though, because 2000 integras did NOT come with coil on plug ignition. Honda only started that with the RSX, the next generation of "Integra". Regardless, the check engine light will come on if there is a sensor issue whether or not the car runs. That's the whole point behind the OBD2 system, it is supposed to make it easier to diagnose.

Also, I know you THINK you have pressure at the fuel rail, but just because fuel sprays out, that doesn't mean you have ADEQUATE pressure at the rail. I'm not saying fuel is the issue here, I'm just saying you need to be thorough in ruling something out. Use starting fluid. Then if it doesn't start, any fuel issue is completely ruled out.

As for the cam issue...they should stay in time with the crankshaft. I wonder if the crankshaft pulley has stripped the keyway and is changing positions, essentially telling you that it's at TDC when it's not? If the cams are connected to the crank properly via the timing belt, there is NO PHYSICAL way they can come out of timing. The only way is if they were slipping cogs, and if that were the case, they wouldn't line back up.

The cams coming out of sync baffles me. It just physically can't happen on a previously running engine. You're either looking at the wrong markings or the crankshaft pulley is slipping on the crankshaft. If anyone else has a possible explanation, I'd be glad to hear it.

DumpdEJ6

To verify the engine is indeed at TDC when the crank pulley says it is, put a long socket extension or something similar in the #1 spark plug hole and turn the engine over by hand. Verify that the #1 piston is at the top of its stroke whenever the crank pulley says it should be. If it's not, you have a broken crank timing pulley.

AllMtrRex

If you are 100% sure you have spark, and 100% sure you have compression, and 100% sure the plugs are not wet with fuel/fouled, you could spray some ether/starting fluid inside the throttle body and the car will stumble (Try to start) even if the ecu is toast.

Deanrocker

I always have all 4 plugs out when turning crankshaft pulley. In the #1 piston well I have a long-handled screwdriver with tape that only gets exposed when it's TDC. How about this theory ...
The cams can be out of sync with TDC on the crankshaft IF they timing belt tensioner pulley bolt is not correct. My next step is to tighten (or loosen) that and rotate crank 5 or 6 times to see if cams are in up position when crank is TDC.

The belt doesn't feel loose, but I've no point of reference. But I'm guessing a loose belt could, in theory, cause the cams and crank to be out of snyc. No?

Deanrocker

Respectfully, I don't think that's accurate. Too many sensors can tell it otherwise. I know compression and air is present. I think fuel and spark are present when the ECU permits it to be. I think the CKV sensor prohibits fuel/spark from delivering because the valves aren't where they're supposed to be due to the cam and crank timing being off.
Sound logical?

DumpdEJ6

The cams will NEVER be out of sync unless they have slipped timing, in which case, they will ALWAYS be out of sync. Period, end of story. Belt tension has nothing to do with it except that if it's loose it can cause them to slip. I don't know what to tell you except that you have to be reading it incorrectly, or your timing belt crank pulley is slipping. Nothing else that I know of could explain it.

If you can take pictures, that might help. I don't want to say that you don't know what you're doing because I don't know you and you don't know me, but there are two red flags on the play already, the COP arrangement you say is there, (which is not OEM) and the impossible EVTEC (Extreme Valve Timing Electronically Controlled) that you say is happening. Respectfully, either the crank pulley is slipping or you are reading it incorrectly, there is no third option that I am aware of.

Deanrocker

I respect your opinion and would love to discuss this with you via phone call, as I'm running into more trouble trying to adjust the belt tension, as I incorrectly thought that would help the cams align with the crank. Anyway, can I give you my number or vice versa? Thanks for considering. If not, perhaps I can snap a few pics.
Right now, though, the crank pulley nut is locked up so badly I can't even rotate it in either direction, and am afraid I will really screw things up if I try to force it. This is a new symptom, perhaps brought on by overtightening the timing belt inadvertantly.

AllMtrRex

Like I say, if you are 100% getting spark. Verified at the spark plug.

AllMtrRex

I would get someone with a little more mechanical know-how to help you. Don't take this the wrong way, I don't wont you to make possibly an easy fix, a costly fix.

Deanrocker

Maybe I don't know my terminology. Coil on plug ... Is this ignition wires? I have 4 ignition wires that one end plugs into the distributor, and the other end to the end of the spark plug. Is that not COP?

As far as the cams and crank being out of sync ... I believe that when piston #1 is at its apex -- as determined by screwdriver depth in #1 spark plug well and by tic mark on crank pullley -- both cams should either be pointing at 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock. However, I can assure you this is not the case. So I guess we should assume there is some slippage somewhere? Or perhaps a bent crankshaft --- which seems unlikely. Something is making the cams not keep time with the crank.

Attached are my notes on this subject. They should be self-explanatory.

maxwellmercer

I feel like there's no way the cams can just be "in sync" then off with a few rotations. If its on its on, and vice versa. 1-3-4-2, not sure where you're getting the 5-6 sequence from.

Deanrocker

The numbers in the left column represent how many times I turned the crank to get the number one piston all the way to the top. When I got 6 revolutions and I saw that the cans were getting farther away from 12, I reversed the procedure.
Rest assured the up arrows on both cams were not pointing at either 12 or 6 when the Piston number one was at top dead center.

DumpdEJ6

First, what you described is not COP, with COP there is a separate ignition coil for each plug, 4 in total for this engine. You have the OEM ignition, one ignition coil inside the distributor, and 4 plug wires sending that spark to their respective plugs.

Secondly...at this point, based on the information you've given us, I think the next stage is taking the timing belt cover off completely and checking the timing belt pulley. I suspect that the key has sheared off and is allowing it to spin the crank and cams out of sync. The only thing that gives me pause is that if that were the case, they would almost NEVER get back into sync as you seem to be saying they are.

Honestly I'm not sure what more I can do here. I got your PM but I don't know how much more help I can be over the phone. Basically what you're saying is happening is impossible.

Top Dead Center is when the tape is showing, and the cam positions should be either in the 12 oclock position or the 6. The only way that isn't true is if the key sheared on your timing belt pulley, the pulley with cogs on it INSIDE the timing belt cover. And they almost certainly wouldn't sync up again. I know I'm repeating myself, but that's just the only way that makes sense.

Deanrocker

I think what you're saying is probably spot-on. I thought perhaps the key sheared too as I even saw flakes of metallic powder on the pulley below it. And when you say almost never that doesn't mean never. I'm telling you with 100% conviction that the number one piston is top dead center in both cams were at 12 but after four or five spins the cams work position more at 10 or 11. But now my problem is I can't even turn the crank more than 90 degrees in either direction. So I will take off the lower cover and see if I can figure out if there is a key sheared if that is the case, what is next?

Deanrocker

And regardless of whether we find an answer or not I sincerely appreciate the time you have devoted to helping me try to fix this. It is appreciated. I only wish I could convince you that cams and crank get out of sync!

DumpdEJ6

If that's the case then you'll need to get a replacement key from Honda (they are pretty cheap) and re-do the mechanical timing. If you don't have records of it being done within the last 50k or so, it would probably be worth it to change the timing belt, water pump, and tensioner pulley. I highly recommend an Aisin brand kit as they are, to my knowledge, the only kit with OEM level quality. Obviously aside from Honda parts, but that will probably be significantly more expensive.