wreckedmyteg

Can't wait until they get here. Paid $73.00 including shipping.

Not too bad of a deal. They want $150.00 at the local bone yard.



A couple questions:

1.) What is the ideal runner length?
2.) Should I use the manifold injector ports, or the ITB's (I'll probably use the ITB's, then I can just chop the flange of my B20 manifold and weld on runners.)
3.) I've read that stock injectors will end up peaking out. Do I need to get some DSM injectors?
4.) I've got no engine management at all (not even a SAFC or equivalent), will it run if I get it to idle, and are there any risks?

Anything else I should take into consideration?

THANKS!

mEr

very nice...

vtec69

im jelous

electronb16si

You are going to need standalone for sure. I doubt you will get them to run without it.

RallyRedGT-V6

go ahead and flame...but what exactly is that?

tegasaurus

ITB = indivual throttle bodies.

apparently they increase the volumetric efficiency of your motor (if you have a 2 liter motor, 100% volumetric efficiency would be for it to inhail 2 liters of air). however with restrictions in the intake manifold, etc a stock motor's VE is about 60-75%. given you're at sea level at ideal temperatures.

intake header and exhaust adds about
5%, etc.

ITBs, when tuned proberly will allow a very large jump - somewhere aroudn 10-12%

No-Gi

swing by the all motor forum. They have been talking a lot about them lately.

slowata

Your low end is gonna suuuuuuuuuuck. Oh, and take a look at pro drag racers...you'll see that they have decided that the right kind of plenum-style intake manifold with a single, large TB is more advantageous.

However, your car will sound sick sick sick with ITB's, and from what I understand, throttle response is amazing. Also, how often do you see ITB's on a street car?

BTW, I believe it is possible to run ITB's with the stock computer. It works on Neons hehe...

Overall have fun, keep us updated!

Ben

deepgreengsr

Here are your answers:

1.) What is the ideal runner length?
Depends on your header length, I would build a few diff manifolds and dyno. Long header you would want a shorter runner.
2.) Should I use the manifold injector ports, or the ITB's (I'll probably use the ITB's, then I can just chop the flange of my B20 manifold and weld on runners.)
whatever you want.
3.) I've read that stock injectors will end up peaking out. Do I need to get some DSM injectors?
yes you do and get some real ones not just some dsm
4.) I've got no engine management at all (not even a SAFC or equivalent), will it run if I get it to idle, and are there any risks?

Get a standalone or at least uberdata. and no it wont idle at all, and as soon as you rev it up you will go lean off the scale and prolly fry your motor.

tegasaurus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by neonorific20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
how often do you see ITB's on a street car?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

don't r34 skylines come with stock ITBs? and well... don't nearly all sport bikes come with itbs

but realistically, you'll see more gains from a nice intake manifold/tb combo, like the DTR ported stock one with a 65/68mm throttle body... those dyno around 20whp gains

however if you got the cash, then go ITBs, much more potential down the road.

which injector ports to use isn't based off of whatever you feel like using, its based off the engine managment. The air/fuel atomization would greatly benifit from using the GSXR ports, however since they are a fair amount further back, you might have problems with puddeling of fuel (when the valves close fuel will still be spraying) unless you correct this with some crazy stand alone.

judging by the fact you thought of running dsm 450s vs RC 440s, makes me think you're thinking cheap.... don't do it it'll kill ya in the long run. the best piece of advice i can give you is get top notch fuel parts (injectors, pump, regulator, EMS). and don't start the car up and rev it in your garage just so you can sleep easy that night... trailer it to a dyno once your last bolt is put on, and all the problems are solved.

Accord94DX

Skyline GTRs, AE111 levins, E30 M3s, just to name a few OEM ITB engines

BlackThorN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Accord94DX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Skyline GTRs, AE111 levins, E30 M3s, just to name a few OEM ITB engines</TD></TR></TABLE>
euro E36M3's had them as well as all E46 M3's

Accord94DX

Didn't know that!

wreckedmyteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tegasaurus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
judging by the fact you thought of running dsm 450s vs RC 440s, makes me think you're thinking cheap.... don't do it it'll kill ya in the long run. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not cheap, I'm "grass roots"...(or shade tree).

Scharged00GsR

i love e-bay too. good fined.

wreckedmyteg

I don't get why stand alone engine management would be required. The map sensor reads pressure, and that's always a constant. Is the issue the fact that the ITBs will put the pressure out of range (fuel table wise)?

Circuit Star-29

The problem the map will have is that there won't be enough pressure to read. Check out this thread. Its coming, slowly but surely. https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=858761

PowerHouse

wati wait wait, i'm totally lost. we're putting gsxr itb on a teg???

Circuit Star-29

Well, they are being modified to fit. Its not as easy as people think. "AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD...DO NOT PUT THEM ON A STOCK MOTOR!!!"

wreckedmyteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nathan atwell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, they are being modified to fit. Its not as easy as people think. "AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD...DO NOT PUT THEM ON A STOCK MOTOR!!!" </TD></TR></TABLE>

Why not?

Granted they'll do **** with the stock cams, but I'm sure they'll add some kind of gain (I hope).

What do you feel the criteria is (mod wise) before adding these to an engine. I would think anything that increases volumetric efficiency would be a benefit.

Why add a intake, header, or exhaust to a stock motor?

Circuit Star-29

ITBs shouldn't be installed on a stock motor because the benefits of a setup like ITBs won't see its full potential. Sure, you can do it, but its a waste of time, as the power increase will only be minimal on a stock motor. When you talk about volumetric efficiency, you need to consider vacuum, which directly correlates with compression and exhaust flow. With a stock motor having very little in any of these areas compared to a modified or built motor, you'll actually be losing efficiency.

wreckedmyteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nathan atwell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ITBs shouldn't be installed on a stock motor because the benefits of a setup like ITBs won't see its full potential. Sure, you can do it, but its a waste of time, as the power increase will only be minimal on a stock motor. When you talk about volumetric efficiency, you need to consider vacuum, which directly correlates with compression and exhaust flow. With a stock motor having very little in any of these areas compared to a modified or built motor, you'll actually be losing efficiency. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Couldn't you say the same thing about any other mod? I would think anything that adds hp (no matter how minimal) is a good thing. As to whether or not it's a waste of time; it's my time and I'll decide that for myself.

Circuit Star-29

Well, it is your time. Go ahead and install them, you'll suffer drivability problems in lower rpms and your gas mileage will go to ****. But, your right, it is your time. It sounds like you could do some more research on the ITB theory. You should look up some stuff BEFORE you go on with this project. Good luck to you though.

adrenaline-racing

Kendall

Runner length and width also helps determine the location of the powerband when properly tuned. A thinner and longer runner will make more low end power, while a wider and shorter runner will make more high end power. As stated, experiment a little.

You should consider the element of fuel atomization when making this decision. Having the fuel injectors further back will give the fuel more room to atomize before entering the combustion chamber, thus improving performance, however you will need to modify the injector bungs on the Suzuki throttle bodies in order for Honda injectors to work, and a custom fuel rail isn't a bad idea.

DSM injectors are a bit bigger than what you want for a relatively stock engine with ITB's. We've never had problems with the stock injectors, but an upgrade to 270's or 310's is never a bad idea.

This is where I have to call BS. Assuming you calibrate the TPS right, then you shouldn't have any idle issues at all. You will need to manually adjust the idle to be somewhat higher than stock though. 1000-1200 rpms is about where you want it. Regarding the statement about running lean, the reading that the MAP sensor is getting actually causes the engine to run a bit rich. Not to mention the fact that the stock ECU is tuned to run a bit rich anyway. On a stock engine, a VAFC should really be all you need to lean it back out a little and have it run great.

By teeing off the vacuum lines between cylinders 1 and 4, and between 2 and 3 before teeing them together to run to the MAP sensor, you'll get a more consistent signal. However I've never seen "lack of pressure to the MAP" problems with the GSXR 1000 setup, not if it's done right.

Once again I have to disagree. It's been proven that a stock engine can greatly benefit from modifications such as different intakes, intake manifolds, gaskets, headers, etc, so why not take it up a notch.

What few people realize about ITB's is that simple airflow isn't the sole reason behind this mod. The increase in air velocity with ITB's over a manifold can actually work to shove amazing amounts of air into the combustion chambers, thus greatly increasing volumetric efficiency. In fact a lot of setups throw MAP sensor codes for actually reading boost. You also have to look at fuel atomization. More air that's moving faster will help to atomize the fuel better, even if the injectors are in the stock location, once again increasing the volumetic efficiency. Finally, you have to look at the benefits in throttle response, even if there weren't great performance benefits, then it would still be worth the increase in throttle response all other factors being the same. Regarding the statement about vacuum, more airflow equates into more vacuum so I don't see where there could be a problem.

With an appropriate submanifold design using a suitable runner length, low end power shouldn't be affected at all. The real benefit, however, will be mid range and high end power. We've never experienced serious drivability problems other than things that were wrong with other components (intake manifold gasket, piston rings, etc), however the gas milage did suffer a bit, nothing unbearable though.

Research is always a good thing. There is plenty of available information here on Honda-Tech.