The Punisher

Ok guys, I know we have debated over this issue many times, and I did a search, but couln't find anything specific to Ludes.

I want to run 25 + at the track, and 15 daily, this is my setup:

JE 9:1 Pistons
Corwer Rods
Ferrea Valve Train

Now, will stock cylinder walls in a H22A1 (Closed Deck) Hold this boost safely, or will I need to Sleeve?

Backyard Speical

first you can not put aftermarket pistons into the stock sleeves in the H or the F series.
A good build up with some decent sleeves nice pistons and strong rods it should be able to hold up to 20PSI no problem.
by the way we have a huge sale on the Drag Gen 3 turbo kit right now. please give us a call at the office


[Modified by Prodigy 2.2 EK, 6:05 AM 12/11/2001]

The Punisher

Hey, not trying to be an ***, but why can't you put them in? I know people personally that have done it with no problems. If what you are saying is true, what is the difference between the H and F series motors compared to the b series that you base this opinion on?

BlueShadow

the reason aftermarket pistons wont work on stock Prelude sleeves os because they have FRM. I believe it stands for fiber reinforced metal/material. its the way the stock sleeves are constructed. You will have to go with aftermarket ductile iron sleeves like golden eagle.

I know for sure this is true for 5th gen Ludes I almost certain the same applies to 4th Gen Ludes... even less sure about the F series.

EDIT: the FRM is actually like a liner that goes over the stock aluminum sleeve.
I did a search and the 4th Gen Ludes will also need aftermarket sleeves if you running aftermarket pistons. I wouldn't be surprised if its the same for all Honda motors.



[Modified by BlueShadow, 2:33 PM 12/11/2001]

gills

gsrlude,

I know this is a little off topic but how much did the GTR taillight conversion run in total with labor and all parts?

boomslang

GSRLude,

You know people personally who run stock sleeves with aftermarket pistons in a Prelude?

From what I have gathered, if you bore the stock H sleeves for bigger pistons, you will bore through the FRM, therefore ruining the sleeves. B series sleeves don't have FRM.

When Dirtylude sees this thread, he will probably comment.


[Modified by Inlinefour, 9:51 AM 12/11/2001]

BlueShadow

I remember DirtyLude saying on PO.com that if you bore through the FRM you will get down to the aluminum surface of the bore. and that same surface friction (aluminum sleeve against aluminum piston) will wear down the components real fast.


[Modified by BlueShadow, 4:30 PM 12/11/2001]

The Punisher

I guess I need to clear it up a bit. I wasn't talking about boring the stock sleeves, I just wanted to know how much boost I could put to them. And I agree with that, if you bore it, there will be problems, the only thing I was debating was the use of an aftermarket piston in a stock sleeve. But it looks as if 20 psi is the highest I would be able to go, so I am going to sleeve.

I talked to Vince out at Golden Eagle and he is offering a groupbuy on sleeves. If we have any interest in this, he will not only give us a deal on the install, bore and hone, cleaning, etc, but Arias Pistons to go with the bore. Contact me if you would be interested and I will set something up. The only thing is, I really wasn't looking to wait too long to get my block done, so I will take some input and if nobody bites, I will just send mine in.

Thanks for the help, and I think it is time for one of these

DirtyLude

Golden Eagle has group buys all the time. I think this one is still active if you want to get in on it. http://home.rochester.rr.com/bplesn/goldeneagle.html

I think we've established that H22's have FRM sleeves. FRM is a cylinder liner that's cast into the block. The sleeves are then bored and honed to expose the FRM. What exactly the problem is with FRM sleeves and forged alluminum pistons, I'm not certain.

Someone is telling me that the stock cast pistons for the H22a have a hard metal coating on them which is needed because the wear characteristics of alluminum and FRM are bad. Honoustly I can't see any evidence of this metal coating on stock pistons so I can't say if that's true or not.

JE specificly states that the H22a series needs to be resleeved for their pistons. It even has a footnote in the catalog. Why they make a .2 overbore piston baffles me. They could make it any size they wanted to if the engine had to be resleeved anyway.

apexii

I've found this confusing in the past, why is the piston material/coating relevant here? Don't just the rings touch the cyl walls??

BlueShadow

No... I was just piggybacking on what InlineFour was saying, maybe the reason you cant use aftermarket pistons on stock sleeves is cause the harder aftermarket pistons will wear through the FRM coating and exposing the aluminum sleeve and destroying that as well.

and just so you know the limit of the stock sleeve is directly related to the stock pistons the limit for them is about 8-9 PSI with good tuning.


[Modified by BlueShadow, 5:31 AM 12/12/2001]

akkording

Ok I plan on getting .25 over bored Type-S pistons. Will .25mm remove the FRM and damage the S pistons?

BlueShadow

possibly... if it doesn't completely remove it maybe it'll weaken it. and if that happens not only will your pistons get damaged but the cylinder wall will be damaged too.

The Punisher

I contacted him to see if I could get in on the buy, and he is not running it anymore. I got the prices from Vince out at Golden eagle, and the break comes in at 4 blocks. I may have that many locally, but the lowest they can go on a H series motor is $644. That happens at 5 blocks. And all the blocks don't have to be H series. I was told .2 mm over is as high as he would suggest to go for a turbo build up, and for an all motor application, .4 mm over. They also sell Arias pistons that he can give us a brake on, or you can provide your own pistons. They need these to match up the sleeves to the pistons. I have had a couple of people contact me on this, as soon as I get some for sures, I will post the group buy in all the forums.

DirtyLude

No, it won't go through the FRM liner. The liner is thicker than that, but not by much. A friend localy put in the .25 overbore Type-S pistons with no problem.

It would be alot better if the piston was pushed straight up and down, but there is strong side loads from the cranks pushing the piston up the cylinder and the piston pushing the crank to the side as it comes down. The piston does push against the cylinder wall, quite a bit.
http://www.higginstribe.com/gallery/derek/DSC00114.JPG

apexii

Wow, a picture sure can explain a lot!

JG Luder

that's from oil starvation. I think

G5LUDE

if you can get it for 644 i will do it.

The Punisher

I am working on it. I was wrong earlier, that guy is still running his groupbuy, but he is trying to make cash out of the deal. I am trying to get at least 4 blocks locally, and yours would make it number 5. Which is the magic number because H series motor can't go any cheaper on a group buy. I will keep you up dated.

On another note. I read the FRM liner is .5 mm thick and it promotes strenght in the cylinder walls. So, if I wanted to go 2 mm over, the only drawback would be the walls wouldn't be as strong, right? And the liner is there to keep the friction down from two alike metals from rubbing together, so why can't you install an aftermarket piston?

By using this logic, I may just use what I got here, get the stock sleeves bored, and save the golden eagle sleeves for next season.

If anyone can disprove this, please do so, I don't like taking chances, but I don't like wasting money either!


[Modified by gsr*lude, 1:29 PM 12/14/2001]


[Modified by gsr*lude, 1:03 AM 12/16/2001]

G5LUDE

email me at g5luder@aol.com with all updates

ImportReview

???

You can put aftermarket pistons in a prelude motor.

Several manufacturers make stock replacements.

Whats the problem?

Done it many times...its all in the ring package...

Jeff

Civic 2 NV

I have a jap h22 with je pistons 14 : 5 : 1 i needed to resleeve i had lot of problems befor i sleeved it my civic ran like **** so i resleeved and now have no problems.

Furry

can i get some more info about the rings, what type of ring and if you use the right ring is it possible to use aftermarket forged pistons??????

satan_srv

There are several articles from when the 97 NSX came out that explain it, as it begain using FRM as well there's more at http://nsx.vtec.net but here's an excerpt:

Honda borrowed a page from the Prelude design book. As with the lesser Honda, the NSX's cylinder cores are now composed of an exotic carbon-fiber/aluminum-oxide matrix instead of the usual iron. When the block's aluminum us poured into the mold around these cores, the molten metal soaks all the way through them. The cylinders are then machined to their final dimensions, leaving a layer of the rigid, long-wearing composite core that's a mere 0.5 mm thick - and as a bonus, the block is 5.3 lbs. lighter. Completing the bottom-end changes are redesigned titanium connecting rods whose slightly larger-diameter big and small ends accept correspondingly bigger crankshaft journals and wristpins. New aluminum pistons are coated with iron for compatibility with the new bore surface.


[Modified by satan_srv, 12:41 PM 7/27/2002]

Accord94DX

The nail in the coffin for this debate?