I was just told that a racer that is in SFWD class was not allowed to run because of his sunroof due to the fact he is running a carbon plug kit. I want to make sure because I too have this kit on my car. In a previous post on the subject Jim said it was ok to run it so I went ahead and took it out as seen here: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=707856

I need to make this clear because its going to be impossible for me to run my "Urban Legend" because it will not be easy to put back in. I would say it will be impossibe for me to put back in with the cage in.

thanks,

art

 

Eh that sucks. This is the exact type of stuff that has been making me nervous...the rulebook is so vague about things and then it seems that the track techs all have their own opinions on things.

Example: I have been asking around about trimming door panels to fit the X bars on the cage...some ppl say its fine, some ppl say absolutely not. It sucks cuz it seems that even an official answer may not be official.

Anyway, none of that pertains to you so I will shut up now Good luck.

 

Here is the email I wrote to Jim Skelly:
" I am currently in the process of building a car to compete in the Sport FWD
class. I had a question that I hope you can clarify for me or point me in the
direction of someone who can. My question is in reference to section 2.7,
"Body". I wanted to know if a sunroof filler panel was considered to be a legal
modification for the Sport FWD class."

And his answer:
"Yes Jonathan, the sun roof fillers are permitted in Sport FWD.

Jim"

 

Hey Art, not trying to bogart your post or anything, but how much weight savings does that save? like all said and done?. how heavy can the sunroof and tracks be, just curious...

 

It saves 55lbs. Not only is it 55lbs but its a bad 55lbs, high and center.

 

Do what I did .......
weld a new roof on there

 

**** ! cage is already in , guess i aint takin out the sunroof

 

taking it out gives u more clearance on the roll cage. i mean if the car is legal weight... what's the big deal.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by crazyitr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do what I did .......
weld a new roof on there</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you can do that I don't see why you can't run a plug and skip the body work and paint.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SEFIxCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">taking it out gives u more clearance on the roll cage. i mean if the car is legal weight... what's the big deal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would think anything that allows you to move the roll cage further away from the drivers head is a good thing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by crx12 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I would think anything that allows you to move the roll cage further away from the drivers head is a good thing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yea but headliner removal would allow you to do the same but headliners are still a requirement...so you never know.

 

First of all what ever jim says goes. Period. To my knowlege only the pro classes and et classes were allowed to remove the sunroof and plug it. This is a sportsman class with certin rules applying to the class. i.e. Windshield wipers and wipermotor, doorpanals, internal panals..?big deal? but the class rules say it must be on.

According to the rule book, its says complete interior blablblablbab mandatory.
It really doesnt say the sunroof can be plugged. It also says Winshield and all windows must remina on OEM saftey glass but doesnt say the sun roof can be removed for carbon or fiberglass plates.

Complete OEM winshield and windows mandatory. From what i remember sunroof are OEM. windows must be operative per FACTORY SPECICATIONS

My wifes Sport FWD civic will be done for pomona(HOPEFULLY) and i left the sunroof in. If i would have known i would have taken it out myself.

We could all call Jim but he is on Vacation till the Dallas race so until then i guess some one talk to jim so sunroof maybe removed.I guess its not a big deal.

Art bring your urban legend out to cali or do you want me to come to tx.? we should have a match race between the 2 urban legneds.

 

Well, if thats true we have the answer then because he said "yes" in the link Art posted right before the season started. This is a gray area because the rules don't specifically outlaw it. It seems that if they really wanted to outlaw it they would say so in the rules. Sunroof plugs help level the playing field when your racing against cars that never came with a sunroof. The occurance Art is speaking of happened last week in Vegas when a firend of mine was not allowed to run in SFWD. It was a 92-95 Civic SI hatch which came with the sunroof from the factory. As everyone knows that car came in many flavors both with and without the sunroof. I guess my friend has a few options:

1. Put his 40lb sunroof back in and run against people with the same chassis that just bought the CX instead of the SI (advantage?)
2. Sell his car and buy a hatchback with no sunroof, a la CX and then move all of his engine stuff over.
3. Cut the roof off a junkyard hatchback and weld it onto his car, the rules do allow chop tops?

Guys using the sunroof plug aren't "getting over" on anyone their just getting even with the majority of the field.

 

You are right but no where in the book does it say yes you can take out your sunroof and put carbon or fiberglass plugs. The rule book does say what you can do and it doesnt say if you have a sunroof you can take it out and put carbon sheets. It does say you can change you hood and trunk lip and body kit and so on.

under section 7 (body) of the nhra sport compact rule book it says paragraph 3 "Light weight body panels LIMITED,to hood, fenders, and deck lid". i wonder why they didnt put sunroof???carbon and fiberglass is a considered a lightweight body panel from what i can recall.

Theres always loopholes to eveything in life. This should be resloved by the next race

 

i totaly agree with tom , there are many loop holes and we run a sunroof because we want to RUN period. and if we go to texas we will run a sunroof, we are also almost 200lbs over wieght in the class and we dont bitch we race what we got and thats it .hey just for 55lbs just ad 50hp done.
i used to manufacter race panels and you will se we dont run any of it .it sucks cause i have first hand access to it and cannot use it except the trunk lid witch we did not put on cause it just looks better to run a fast time in a hevier car

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by camp1320.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
under section 7 (body) of the nhra sport compact rule book it says paragraph 3 "Light weight body panels LIMITED,to hood, fenders, and deck lid". i wonder why they didnt put sunroof???carbon and fiberglass is a considered a lightweight body panel from what i can recall.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The rules also do not say you can run a fiber glass bumper as a body kit, but people still run them. I am just trying to get a yes or a no because like I said, I already took it out. I know this is a grey area a lot of people need to be clear on.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Theres always loopholes to eveything in life. This should be resloved by the next race</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for looking into this tom.

I too am in the same boat as you HARTENG because we both have integras. Its my fault for picking this chassis..

art

 

They have a lot of rules that leave a LOT of grey area to be taken advantage of. And then again, they have some rules that dont make much sense.

I wish they would take a good look at the class and rethink some of the rules froma safety stand point. Much of the class is in the mid-low 10's and running 130mph+. Some of the sportsman class rules conflict with general saftey. The whole interior and cage rule, mandatory OEM fuel tank...........

I know if I was ever going to hit the wall at 130+, I would want a real fuel cell that can withstand the impact rather than a sumped OEM tank.

Sorry for the off topic, but it is a rule related rant.

 

Do we have any updates yet?

 

I asked Emilio from NDRA, and he said that plugs cannot be used in the Turbo4 class:

"Sorry to say but no a plug in the sunroof would take to much weight out of the car it is a street class." - Emilio

This may or may not affect you since it isn't NHRA, but it is just more info for you.

This does hurt us by the way... the only way for us to reinstall a sunroof, is to cut it in half, install it, and then reweld it back together once it is up there, and then hope for the best... Yea, i think this rule is one that doesn't make much sense... just cause a car has a sunroof plug in it doesn't mean that it isn't streetable/street legal/etc...

I hope they change this rule to allow plugs.... especially when there are cars out there that didn't come with sunroof that have the weight advantage that Emilio is claiming we would have if we plugged it.

It is suprising to me to see the NDRA enforce this rule like this, particularly when they allow exhausts to come out the side of the front bumper, 5 gallon fuel cells, and what-not... whats so "street class" about that? I think that for the better interest of the racer, the two sanctioning bodies need to both look over their rules, and at least be sorta consistant, so that they can broaden their horizons and allow more people to race rather than choose one body and only being able to race in that one because you made a change to your car for that sanctioning body (like the 5 gallow fuel cell that is installed for safety reasons).

 

Im also wondering about this too since i am building a car for this class..... i was thinking, if we took out the sunroof glass, wouldnt that be safer ? imagine slamming into the wall and then all the glass breaking down on top of you... hopefully there will be an answer soon, but from what Tom had said, looks like its safer just to keep the sunroof on since it is a OEM piece of glass. thanks for the info Tom

 

If you cannot use a plug and you don't want the weight of your original sunroof, and cannot put it back in, replace it with a cheap manual popup sunroof.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ComposiMo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I asked Emilio from NDRA, and he said that plugs cannot be used in the Turbo4 class:

"Sorry to say but no a plug in the sunroof would take to much weight out of the car it is a street class." - Emilio

This may or may not affect you since it isn't NHRA, but it is just more info for you.

This does hurt us by the way... the only way for us to reinstall a sunroof, is to cut it in half, install it, and then reweld it back together once it is up there, and then hope for the best... Yea, i think this rule is one that doesn't make much sense... just cause a car has a sunroof plug in it doesn't mean that it isn't streetable/street legal/etc...

I hope they change this rule to allow plugs.... especially when there are cars out there that didn't come with sunroof that have the weight advantage that Emilio is claiming we would have if we plugged it.

It is suprising to me to see the NDRA enforce this rule like this, particularly when they allow exhausts to come out the side of the front bumper, 5 gallon fuel cells, and what-not... whats so "street class" about that? I think that for the better interest of the racer, the two sanctioning bodies need to both look over their rules, and at least be sorta consistant, so that they can broaden their horizons and allow more people to race rather than choose one body and only being able to race in that one because you made a change to your car for that sanctioning body (like the 5 gallow fuel cell that is installed for safety reasons).</TD></TR></TABLE>
At the 1st NDRA race in VMP I asked glenn if it was legal. He said no. I tallked to him and Michael Bremer and on that monday Glenn posted it was legal. So here we are towards the end of the season and who knows if I'll be able to race because I asked people both in NHRA and NDRA if it was legal and they both said yes! So now they both say no? We (I) need answers.......

art

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Arturbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">At the 1st NDRA race in VMP I asked glenn if it was legal. He said no. I tallked to him and Michael Bremer and on that monday Glenn posted it was legal. So here we are towards the end of the season and who knows if I'll be able to race because I asked people both in NHRA and NDRA if it was legal and they both said yes! So now they both say no? We (I) need answers.......

art</TD></TR></TABLE>

Im right there with you man..... hopefully they will allow it.. although my cage isnt in yet thankfully.

 

Hopefully this fall/winter will lead to some '05 rule revisions to address these issues, and maybe lead to some consistancy between the different orginazitions. Fingers crossed

 

You can still race if they say it's not legal, just have to race in brackets. That's what I had to do in Vegas, when they said my sunroof plug wasn't legal. Still got my runs but would of been nice to be in sfwd.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Arturbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">At the 1st NDRA race in VMP I asked glenn if it was legal. He said no. I tallked to him and Michael Bremer and on that monday Glenn posted it was legal. So here we are towards the end of the season and who knows if I'll be able to race because I asked people both in NHRA and NDRA if it was legal and they both said yes! So now they both say no? We (I) need answers......</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yea, this "rule" needs to be decided one way or the other, and then stuck to... i would be very upset if i were you at the beginning of the season Art, being told that you could run with a plug, then now they are saying no...

What if i go through the expense of buying another sunroof motor assembly, cut it in half, weld it up in the car, go through a lot of testing with the added wight at the very top of the car, and then at the beginning of the season, they change their minds and say that plugs are allowed?.... i just wasted a ton of time, a decent little bit of money, and a lot of testing data that is now not going to be consistant because i don't have 50lbs on my roof like i did before....

Now to the extreme.. what if i spend $1000 on body work and a new paintjob on my car to swap out the roof from a non-sunroof car just because of this rule, only to find out that they decide to change the rule again... i could have put that $1000 into entry fees and travel expenses.

This is not the only grey area that needs to be addressed either.

I do understand that Emilio and everyone i've talked to are trying their best to keep the protests to a minimum at these races, but if they want to limit the protests, then there cannot be this much disparity between what is said to be allowed or not allowed, and they need to actually publish it (i.e. after Art talked to glenn about it, it really should have been added to the rulebook if they make a judgement on it, so that way eveyrone knows about it, not just Art)