I was recently at a PCA HPDE at Blackhawk Farms Raceway. For those unfamiliar with the track, it's about 1.8 miles of heavy brake zones with not very long straights for much needed brake cooling. Being at a PCA event in my Integra, I was driving hard. Afterall, I was the only front wheel drive guy there, and had to represent (yO!).

At any rate, I was using Cobalt GT Sports. I really like the pads and had previously used them one other time at this track and once at Gingerman. However, on this day, they didn't hold up so well.

About three laps into my second session I noticed my brake pedal was getting longer and needing a bit more braking zone. I thought I'd probably boiled the fluid, as I'd just spent the day before at Gingerman and had no time to bleed the brakes prior to getting on track at Blackhawk. So I thought I'd take it easy and bleed the brakes after the session. Unfortunately, though, I had to do an emergency stop due to a spinning Boxter (again!) and the pedal essentially went to the floor. I came in as soon as I could then.

Upon arrival in my paddock space, my friends were kind enough to point out that the brakes on both sides of the car were in flames. At many events, the corner workers are top notch and would have noticed, and signaled me, prior to me coming into the paddock. However, at these PCA events, they're a bit lacking. After letting things cool down a while, here's what I found:








I've talked with Andie Lin about what happened, and he said it was most likely normal results for a "street" pad used in an advanced-track situation. Said their race pads shouldn't exhibt the same characteristics under so much heat. I've really enjoyed their product, so I ordered another set of GT Sports for the street and a set of Spec VRs for the track. Hopefully, I'll have better results with the VRs.

While a somewhat advanced driver, I still consider myself a newbie to on-track driving. So lessons learned here: One, if something doesn't feel right, especially in an HPDE, just come in and check it out. There's usually lots of time in the day to be on track. In a race, that statement would change. Two, don't schedule back to back track days when there's 5 hours of driving between them unless you're running One Lap of America and prepared to give the car a full mechanical prep before getting on course. Three, when you call the local to the track parts place and they claim to have calipers for an Integra GSR in stock, ask them to triple-check the numbers so that you don't waste your buddy's time running into town, waiting at the counter, replacing then realizing it was for a Type R, and returning said part. Four, when you return the wrong part don't also turn in the bolts that connect the caliper frame to the knuckle.


Modified by Shmeek at 8:55 AM 8/19/2004

 

I'm a Carbotech fan BUT I'll say this about any vendor's brakes. If you use the wrong compound, don't expect miracles.

Use the right product in the right situation. track use is a tortuous (sp?) event for brakes. Use the best product you can and hope for the best, but expect that sometimes you might over work even the best of products.

 

i don't use the VR's, but the Miata specific pads i have are great. 7 races and about 50% life left.

oh yeah, and they've never been on fire.

 

Non ITR 3g Integras are notoriously brutal on brakes. Street pads... Heavy braking track... No ducting (I'm guessing)... I'm not at all surprised.

My old Integra was murder on RACE compound pads at places like Summit and CMP. That was with double ducting to both the caliper and the center of the rotor. Carbotech. Hawk. Ferrodo. Frodo Baggins... It didn't matter. Destroyed the pads and the rotors without much trouble.

As grumpy said, use the right piece for the application, and if its a heavy braking track, get some ducts in there. The only time I've ever seen pads catch on fire is when they weren't the right application for the job.
I sat and watched Todd Reids pads catch on fire at VIR 2 years ago during a red flagged race. He was using some sort of Autozone or NAPA lifetime pad ('cause he's a cheap-*** bassard).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">double ducting to both the caliper and the center of the rotor. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Any pics of this setup?

RJ - tired of cracking rotors and needs some duckz

 

It may not have been the type of pad so much as it looks like you started the day with pads that were pretty worn. Since much of the brake cooling is done by the pads they did not have a chance. Nearly new pads probably would not have done this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Any pics of this setup?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're kidding right?

 

yeah iam curious how many mm's were left on the pad before the track event?

 

What people - racing and doing HPDEs, both - fail to keep in mind is that the amount of brake use is controlled by their foot and brain. It is not necessary to use ALL of the brakes ALL of the time...

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're kidding right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know how ducting is supposed to go. I'd just like to see how you did it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What people - racing and doing HPDEs, both - fail to keep in mind is that the amount of brake use is controlled by their foot and brain. It is not necessary to use ALL of the brakes ALL of the time...

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

My driving addiction won't let me only drive 8/10's though so I'm stuck with using ALL my brakes. The last track event I did I spent money for some race pads at least and made the weekend much more enjoyable.

 

quoted directly from cobalts site


gt-sports

autocross
HPDE
perf. street


i do understand that it could just be simply WAYY over working the pads, but i think thats pretty lame of them to advertise them as a autocross, HPDE, and perf street pad. then when something goes wrong they say there simply street pads.


this is coming from some one who just drove for the first time with his brand new GT-sports and i love um

 

Look on the bright side, you have a really cool souvenier and conversation piece in the welded together piston/backing plate combo. I have exactly the same thing from about 1995 from a CRX and Cool Carbon race pads, fire and all.

That was the last time I ever raced with no front brake ducts and I suggest that it be yours too. Right pads, better cooling, jidicious use of brake on track = happier braking.

 

As others have said, choose the right pad for the job. GSRs are known to be hard on brakes, using an "HPDE" compound is not a good idea. Race pads, remove dust sheild, and ducts.

Now, the failure you see there is more from running the pad material down. With enough heat the backing plate will become mailable enough for the piston to bend it causing the piston to become unsealed and the brake fluid catching on fire.

It is not a good idea to run pads past 1/4 worn on the Integra. You are lucky you found parts and were able to get home.

 

You heat sink- sunk. I guess I can't understand anyone driving on a road course DE or whatever and not ducting the rotors. Cooler temps mean less fried brakes. Zip ties and high temp hose is all it takes.
Barry H.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rainforest &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah iam curious how many mm's were left on the pad before the track event?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure. I had well over half the pads left prior the track day at Gingerman, where I only put about an hour on the pads. I can't believe this would have fully worn the pads down. I did look at it through the caliper, but not measure, and it seemed fine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Zeppelin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It may not have been the type of pad so much as it looks like you started the day with pads that were pretty worn. Since much of the brake cooling is done by the pads they did not have a chance. Nearly new pads probably would not have done this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

These pads had only been on the car since December. They had 1 autocross, and 2 HPDEs on them, maybe a few thousand street miles. They weren't brand new, but weren't very worn either.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It is not necessary to use ALL of the brakes ALL of the time...

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, but it's more fun! But then you get those results.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Look on the bright side, you have a really cool souvenier and conversation piece in the welded together piston/backing plate combo. I have exactly the same thing from about 1995 from a CRX and Cool Carbon race pads, fire and all.

That was the last time I ever raced with no front brake ducts and I suggest that it be yours too. Right pads, better cooling, jidicious use of brake on track = happier braking.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Funny, I have it on my desk at work and many have asked about it. Nice paper weight and a bit of a reminder.

Thanks for all the recommendations on ducting. I'll have to look at what I can do for ducting that's also STS legal. Can't make any modifications for such.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spiff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You are lucky you found parts and were able to get home.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I didn't. The car parts place only had ITR calipers. Too bad they claimed they were for a GSR. But after putting the first side on, it occured to me that they were way too big for the GSR rotor. Fortunately, I had a friend in the area that was coming up to Madison the next day. He trailered it up here, and I caught a ride with my buddies.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I know how ducting is supposed to go. I'd just like to see how you did it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I meant me actually taking pictures of my ****.

 

The pads don't have to be thin and well worn to do this. If they aren't slowing the car and you press harder w/ the pedal (which makes sense at the time in your head if you want to slow it down), you can bend brand new pads. Bigger question for me in that case is why aren't they slowing the car. In this case, seems that you weren't running the right compound for either the track or your style or what not (probably would have had the same result with a HP+, Bobcat, Ultimate, &lt;insert other pad that folks use for autoxing but say they aren't up for full track duty - R4S??&gt. Actually, from my memory, when I have had pads worn down a lot, they seem to back off (as in piston backing off the pad). I would think this is a pedal pressure thing, not a thin pad thing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I guess I can't understand anyone driving on a road course DE or whatever and not ducting the rotors. Cooler temps mean less fried brakes. Zip ties and high temp hose is all it takes. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Took a 944S to the track maybe 25 weekends (Kershaw at least half the time) without brake ducts, never took the backing plates off, using Hawk Blues and don't think I ever actually boiled the brake fluid (changed it all the time like it was bad motor oil but that was hardly necessary in retrospect). I think much depends on how you drive in a school and the car's brakes (comparatively, I did as much damage to my CL-S' brakes in one weekend at Kershaw than all 25 or so in the 944S). And hell, its a DE, if the brakes fade, back off a lap right?

Now that I think about it, I am not sure the CRX had brake ducts on it for the first half dozen races ... absolutley positive there were none on it for my two comp schools and my first SCCA race.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">quoted directly from cobalts site


gt-sports

autocross
HPDE
perf. street


i do understand that it could just be simply WAYY over working the pads, but i think thats pretty lame of them to advertise them as a autocross, HPDE, and perf street pad. then when something goes wrong they say there simply street pads.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

They probably are a perfectly good HPDE pad on a whole bunch of cars. But not many pads, including full race pads, survive on a GSR on a heavy braking track with no ducting. He probably could have destroyed Hawk Blues before the weekend was over and taken the rotors out with them.

Scott, who doesn't miss the constant trouble with the braking system on his GSR.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

They probably are a perfectly good HPDE pad on a whole bunch of cars. But not many pads, including full race pads, survive on a GSR on a heavy braking track with no ducting. He probably could have destroyed Hawk Blues before the weekend was over and taken the rotors out with them.

Scott, who doesn't miss the constant trouble with the braking system on his GSR.</TD></TR></TABLE>

would the problem with the GSR brakes be that the piston is not large enough but you can apply alot of force to the pad creating something bad.

(i don't know what im really saying) any one want to explain why the gsr brakes are troubled?

 

Wait a minute,

2 previous track days,

notorious car for being hard on brakes,

all the pads are to the backing plate,

I do not see the big arguement here,

looks like you used the last bit of the pad, got to the backing plate and did not stop driving

I say take better note of your pad wear after each event, especially for different tracks, and realize that as you get more events under your belt your braking will get harder and harder

also did you change tire compounds, size, brand before this event?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Any pics of this setup?

RJ - tired of cracking rotors and needs some duckz</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, here's a pic of what doesn't work



and the aftermath:

crumbling...


and bowed/bent....


And this is on stock 88-90 Civic brakes. Granted, this was full race, I won (wee, double regional!!), and I turned the fastest lap time ever, but my brakes were getting scary bad by lap 9. I was going to start a thread about this very topic, but I guess I'm bogarting this one

Matt says I should put the ducts toward the caliper. Why did I pay $100 on these freakin SMSB ducts if they ain't cooling? Two weekends ago my brakes were close to fire, smoke coming out of wheels, and we replaced the calipers with some O'Reillys replacements for this last weekends double regional. No more smoke, but the fade is still there. Is it possible I just destroyed the pads 2 weekends so they were ineffective at dissipating the heat this weekend as well?

Any suggestions much appreciated as braking is where I tend to ownz0r those sick Dodge Omni's, VW Scirrocos, RX-7's, and Spec Miata's, lol