Mike K

I don't have any dyno plots yet.. it's just a matter of me finding some time and scanning them on my friend's scanner.. but I've got all the dyno sheets in front of me.

Just a recap, two motors were tested.. each motor got like 8 to 10 runs on tuning. Cam gears, fuel PSI and V-AFC were tuned on both setups.

Motor 1:
B18C5
Head milled 12 thousandths
DC JDM header w/ test pipe
AEM intake and AEM cam gears
V-AFC
Stock exhaust

Cams tested on motor 1:
Toda Spec A
Jun 2 Intake cam / ITR exhaust cam
CTR cams

Bottom line is, the JUN combo absolutely PISSED on the Toda A's all the way from 4000rpm to about 7600rpm(where the JUN's peaked).. then the Todas gradually pulled up until about 8200rpm.. peaking at 184.6
Midrange is a no brainer. JUN2 intake cam is a phenomenal investment. Just wait til you see the chart. And NO, this is not biased at ALL toward the JUNs. Toda A was the only cam I believed in for the past year or so. I'm still in shock to tell you the truth. I mean, JUN2 intake cam with stock exhaust cam. That's HALF the investment of the Todas and it gives all the power where road-racers want it. Enough talking.. I'll just post the chart and you'll see.
As a comparison.. tuned CTR cams were better than the Toda A until about 6000rpm.. then the Todas pulled away hard.
Peak numbers and settings.
JUN2 intake- 180/131 (+6, +1, 44psi, VTEC 5100, timing 20)
Toda A's- 184/131 (+5, +4, 40psi, VTEC 5200, timing 20)
CTR- 179/132 (+4, -0.5, 38psi, VTEC 4900, timing 19)

Motor 2:
B18C5
Endyn 12:1 pistons in 81.5mm bore
Mugen JDM 4-1 header
OBD1 clip w/ Skunk2 P28
Test pipe, Tanabe exhaust w/ bottle necks removed
Portflow inner springs/retainers

Cams tested:
JUN3
Toda Spec B
Toda Spec A

This one is a matter of choice. Best torque was the Toda B with 133.3.. best hp was JUN3 with 195.6..
From 2000-4000rpm all 3 cams were damn close on the charts.
Toda Spec B held about 3-4 hp and ft/lbs over the JUN3 cams from 4000 to 6500.. then the JUN's took over by at least 8hp. The B's peaked a little over 8400 and started to drop.. the JUNs pulled away to 9000. It's pretty obvious to see that the B is for road racer and the JUN3 is for drag racer. Personally, I would pick JUN3 because the idle. That's my only gripe about the B's.
Even MORE shocking is the run with toda A vs. toda B. personally, i think this chart may have some impact when people see it. reason being.. from VTEC transition to about 66-6700.. the A's are AHEAD of the B's in hp and tq! Then, they stay about the same til 8200.. then the B's pull ahead..


peak numbers and final settings
Toda B - 190/133 (+7, +7, 28psi, VTEC 5700, timing 17)
JUN3- 195/130 (-1.5, +1, 48psi, VTEC 5700, timing 17)
Toda A- 186/138 (+5, +3, 40psi, VTEC 5500, timing 15)

*FOR THE RECORD* On Motor 1, stock injectors were used with adjustable pressure. On Motor 2, 310cc were used on JUN3 and Toda B.. 270cc was used on Toda A.
I'll post charts soon..


[Modified by Mike K, 8:25 PM 11/17/2001]

Malice

Dr Pooface

Wow! Thanks alot Mike. Can't wait to see the charts!!

Misfit

same here. i can't wait to see some charts.

Flux

Great info, thanks for the tests...

berkel

Cool, except every cam seems to outperform the Spec Bs (which I have), even the Spec A, lol.


FB

Darin D.

damn, im surprised...you should have been able to make more than 190 and 133 with the spec Bs. did you try retarding the exhaust cam at all? When i tuned my friends car with the spec Bs, power fell off dramatically when i started advancing the exhaust cam. We ended up at +3, -6. 196 and 138...with about 12.0:1 compression, a stock b16a head same valvetrain as your motor, and about 60 psi on stock fuel system.

mafay2

How come you didn't do a test with both JUN II intake and exhaust cams and compare with the JUN II with ITR exhaust cam?

BTW, which 310cc injector did you use on the specB? If I have a Yoshio reprogrammed ECU for stock injectors and when I changes it to the RC 310cc injectors, will I need to reprogram the ECU for it again or I can just tune it with FPR and VAFC?


[Modified by mafay2, 2:43 AM 11/18/2001]

Cosworth

Mike K - if you don't mind me asking, which cam setup from the test gave the <u> best</u> idle characteristic? Yeah, a weird question, but I'm all for the most "stock" like cam.

Reid

JUNs are famous for their like stock idle, while the Toda's are known to have a lumpier idle.

Toda Party

iTrader: (2)

This is exactly what i wanted to see ...


Anyone planning to do some runs with Toda C's and/or the Skunk2 cams?

ITR632

Wow impressive on Jun's part, guess I know what cams I'm going with now!! Now for the header test......

Hybrid ctr

Great job Mike

I'm slowly becoming a JUN believer
but I want to see Toda C's vs JUN 3's

SMSP

Great job Mike

Everyone should be thankful for Mike doing this test. It was much more work changing and tuning cams then it will be to change out headers. Plus I don't think Mike collected much money for this.

555R

hey mike
interesting findings there
however just clarify this for me
you listing for cam gear settings first number and second number is
intake and exhaust respectively?
and the +1,-1 etc is that degrees or notches
as I had found out the notches mean 2 degrees
1/2 a notch is 1 degree...

and for the Jun 3s
they do not recommend any more than +1.5 and -1
intake and exhaust in degrees
I noticied you are running
JUN3- 195/130 (-1.5, +1, 48psi, VTEC 5700, timing 17)
so they ran better with less overlap
judging by the settings
did you ever run into piston to valve clearance issues
as I do understand that the Jun3s are pretty damn close
and the toda setup
advancing both cams?
any ideas why that works
just a few questions racking my brain
thanks

B18C5-EH2

And how much is JUST the JUN 2 intake cam? Can you buy JUST the intake cam?

CTR cam is better than Spec A's? Weird...

If I'm already pushing 175whp on stock 1998 (shittier) cams, would I even benifit by dropping in a CTR or other mild cam?

BTW: Skunk2 is coming out with a new cam deal:

3 stages of cams! I can't remember the link dammit...

Mike K

When I say +1, -1, I mean the intake cam is advanced one degree on the gear, and the exhaust cam is retarded one degree at the gear.

Yea, when I first read this in the instructions, I thought it was a bunch of bullshit. Oh well, I guess JUN was right. After all, they made the cams! LOL

i went as far as +5 on the jun intake cam. but i didnt go any more than 6 degrees of separation because i didnt wanna make the valves touch(or so i have been told. not sure b/c this was the first time i tuned jun cams.)

your guess is as good as mine on this one. to be quite honest, i have no clue. i tried and tried with the spec B's. we actually did more like 15-16 pulls on these compared to the other cams. retarding the exhaust cam did nothing but make the idle worse and make the power go down. i guess everyone has different experience with the spec B's. but also you may want to take into consideration that the head is milled 15 thousandths on the test motor, so ACTUAL cam timing may be different. maybe?

Mike K

Because I am a cheap ***, and it's my own motor for testing and I didn't feel the JUN2 exhaust cam was worth it when looking at the specs. As the test proved, all you need is a jun2 intake cam. maybe you might pick up 2 or 3 hp by using the jun2 exhaust cam.. but is it worth the extra $500? nah.

I used RC 310cc. Regarding your question, I have no clue. I don't deal with Yoshio so I don't know. I just ran a Skunk2 chipped p28 and tuned what I had.





[Modified by Mike K, 2:11 AM 11/18/2001]

typerhatch

On motor number one what kind of valvetrain did you use?

Maxi

on Motor2, you ended up with +7 intake, +7 exhaust on the cam gears and 28psi fuel pressure with the Spec B's? Those are some unusual settings! I've heard of Spec B owners going to +4 or +5 on the intake and maybe +2 on the exhaust but your settings are truly different than anything I've ever tried myself (I have Spec B's on my car) or seen on charts online. Are you confident those were the optimal settings for the cams? Is the low fuel pressure setting due to the absense of a tunable ecu?

Just trying to make sense of your settings, not trying to criticism them in any way. I appreciate all the effort you obviously put into this piece of research. Good stuff!

Cheers,
Dave

ImportReview

I have some comments.

Your test results are very close to what my tests have been, the B's are like 5-6 HP under Jun 3's in every test, every car I have ever seen. Perfect idle VS lumpy. Its no contest. JUn 3's dominate.

I laugh everytime I read a thread where people "question" the tuning. I am sure Mike K tried many cam gear settings. Give the guy some credit.

Just to let some of you know, on every motor, the cam settings can be different. If we knew it was +4-2 on brand X cams...why even bother dynoing? But the settings are different on every car.

Personally, I believe the more you advance the intake JUn cam, the better the graph will be...for a few of our cars, the JUN 3's are at almost +5. And the exhuast is also at +5. +5.+5 works well on a few of our cars, while one likes +2,-2.

Good going Mike K. I wonder how many people will sell the Toda B's and get JUN 3's now. And then they will enjoy about 5 more HP and perfect idle.

Right now...you won't hear this from me often but...Buy the Toda cams...they are available widespread. Try to find Jun 3's.. not in stock...hardly anywhere, and the manufacturer doesn't have them either and doesn't even know when new ones are coming...they have not had any for months...

Seems like JUN doesn't want to sell anything...its kinda hard when you have none in stock but 2 times a year.

YOu can only use what you can get...and Toda B's are good for a quick solution.

Jeff

Type Goch

what are the price differences between the Toda B's, C's, and Jun 2's and 3's?

mafay2

Where can you buy JUN 2 intake cam alone? I always thought they only sell in pair!!

MikeD

Mike K:

Thanks for going to the effort and posting here. This is really valuable information. I will definitely save this post.

SoCal ITR

Props on the post, and BTW, are there any other cams besides the Toda A's that you can just drop in with only cam gears? Thanks....