taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drive train
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taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain
Just about everyday I get in the forced induction forum I see at least one post that says "new dyno numbers" and over the years they have definitely inflated.
So with all of these 400-500 hp cars running around the streets traction is definitely an issue and I wanted to address this issue, so what I'm gona do is just go over some of the components that will help a steet car of this caliber keep the wheels gripping and spining as little as possible..
Some of these things listed will be pritty much nobrainers but if you guys are running something in your car that made a difference I would love to hear your input!!
1. LSD or Limited slip differencial. There is a lot of these on the market and they all pritty much do the same thing and that is switch power from the wheel thats slipping to the one with more grip. In our case they eliminate a lot of torque steer issues that u get with a car thats got a good amount of power and ofcourse help also with launch and shifting to keep the wheel spin down.
2. Traction Bars again a lot of these on the market but choosing a set that's gona work for you is something your gona have to come up on your own, they improve your 60ft times and take care of wheel hop issues if the right adjustments are made with the radius rods being adjustable they let you set control arm preload, adding postive caster and also keeping all of your joints and bushings from sloping around.
3. Springs now for the street u don't really want to go out and get the heavyest load spring stick it in the back and call it good beacause of safety issues and comfort of ride if this is a daily street monster so in this situation I would just try to get a spring that has a happy medium like maybe a 600lb spring in the back and about half that in front so your ride doesn't suffer.
4. Shocks now you can go out and get kyb's or blow your waad and get penskes but the general idea here is to have the right amount of dampening and rebound.
In front wheel drive applications you want to have great dampening in the back but even better rebound in the front to keep the front end of the car down as much as possible and prevent yourself from baking your tires which brings me to component #5
5. Tires If this is a summer car only stick the widest et street tire on there possible to get maximum traction out of it, and keep the pressures lower because you never know if that cammed, nitroused C5 is gona take off from 2nd or 4th gear so this way your always ready to go!! If these are not your coup of tee go with some bf's of some sort they will do the job aswell
6. Staged boost control There are a variety of boost controllers out there that will do this but some of them are better have better adjustability, like for instance a profec b has 2 preset levels which you can choose with a button mounted to your steering wheel and this kind of controll works very well but lets say your car is just a tire spinning monster and kraves lots of adjustement in this case I would go with one of my favorites innovative!! This controller is in my oppinion the king of controllers just because its pritty easy to work with and will have a stetting ready for you in any gear you want. So instead of sitting there and feahering the throttle you can have your boost turned down to where you can still be floored but keeping the tires in tackt with the pavement.
7. Control arm to shock tower tie cables, now I don't know how well this would work on the street or how well it would hold up on a daily basis but if you don't have the cash for penske shocks this is they way to go because your pritty much doing the same thing and thats keeping the front of the car down durring a hard launch and also preventing weight from the front going to the back.
8. Suspension bushings and solid motor mounts would be the key to keeping everything going on stable and well inbalance when the car is under acceleration.
You need the suspension and engine to flex as little as possible. So bushings and some mounts would be a great investment.
9. Camber & Caster these play a very big part in some of the traction issues you have been having because depending you how much your front end is lifting off of the ground your loosing contact patch which equals less traction..
A good camber setting would be .5 negative in the front.
Your Caster on the other hand affects your steering and handling which is also important id drag racing or actually any kind of driving should be set to 4-6 degrees of positive caster in a front wheel drive drag application.
So there those were some of the things that I thought would be important to know about on how to setup the drivetrain of your 500whp street moster I would love to hear your input on all of this anything you feel I was wrong about go ahead and mension it I'm really anctious to see if you guys have found any other ways of getting traction.
Adi
So with all of these 400-500 hp cars running around the streets traction is definitely an issue and I wanted to address this issue, so what I'm gona do is just go over some of the components that will help a steet car of this caliber keep the wheels gripping and spining as little as possible..
Some of these things listed will be pritty much nobrainers but if you guys are running something in your car that made a difference I would love to hear your input!!
1. LSD or Limited slip differencial. There is a lot of these on the market and they all pritty much do the same thing and that is switch power from the wheel thats slipping to the one with more grip. In our case they eliminate a lot of torque steer issues that u get with a car thats got a good amount of power and ofcourse help also with launch and shifting to keep the wheel spin down.
2. Traction Bars again a lot of these on the market but choosing a set that's gona work for you is something your gona have to come up on your own, they improve your 60ft times and take care of wheel hop issues if the right adjustments are made with the radius rods being adjustable they let you set control arm preload, adding postive caster and also keeping all of your joints and bushings from sloping around.
3. Springs now for the street u don't really want to go out and get the heavyest load spring stick it in the back and call it good beacause of safety issues and comfort of ride if this is a daily street monster so in this situation I would just try to get a spring that has a happy medium like maybe a 600lb spring in the back and about half that in front so your ride doesn't suffer.
4. Shocks now you can go out and get kyb's or blow your waad and get penskes but the general idea here is to have the right amount of dampening and rebound.
In front wheel drive applications you want to have great dampening in the back but even better rebound in the front to keep the front end of the car down as much as possible and prevent yourself from baking your tires which brings me to component #5
5. Tires If this is a summer car only stick the widest et street tire on there possible to get maximum traction out of it, and keep the pressures lower because you never know if that cammed, nitroused C5 is gona take off from 2nd or 4th gear so this way your always ready to go!! If these are not your coup of tee go with some bf's of some sort they will do the job aswell
6. Staged boost control There are a variety of boost controllers out there that will do this but some of them are better have better adjustability, like for instance a profec b has 2 preset levels which you can choose with a button mounted to your steering wheel and this kind of controll works very well but lets say your car is just a tire spinning monster and kraves lots of adjustement in this case I would go with one of my favorites innovative!! This controller is in my oppinion the king of controllers just because its pritty easy to work with and will have a stetting ready for you in any gear you want. So instead of sitting there and feahering the throttle you can have your boost turned down to where you can still be floored but keeping the tires in tackt with the pavement.
7. Control arm to shock tower tie cables, now I don't know how well this would work on the street or how well it would hold up on a daily basis but if you don't have the cash for penske shocks this is they way to go because your pritty much doing the same thing and thats keeping the front of the car down durring a hard launch and also preventing weight from the front going to the back.
8. Suspension bushings and solid motor mounts would be the key to keeping everything going on stable and well inbalance when the car is under acceleration.
You need the suspension and engine to flex as little as possible. So bushings and some mounts would be a great investment.
9. Camber & Caster these play a very big part in some of the traction issues you have been having because depending you how much your front end is lifting off of the ground your loosing contact patch which equals less traction..
A good camber setting would be .5 negative in the front.
Your Caster on the other hand affects your steering and handling which is also important id drag racing or actually any kind of driving should be set to 4-6 degrees of positive caster in a front wheel drive drag application.
So there those were some of the things that I thought would be important to know about on how to setup the drivetrain of your 500whp street moster I would love to hear your input on all of this anything you feel I was wrong about go ahead and mension it I'm really anctious to see if you guys have found any other ways of getting traction.
Adi
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (newgsr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newgsr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
In front wheel drive applications you want to have great dampening in the back but even better rebound in the front</TD></TR></TABLE>
are you sure about this?
In front wheel drive applications you want to have great dampening in the back but even better rebound in the front</TD></TR></TABLE>
are you sure about this?
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (Muckman)
haha, well when u compare 1000's to 250's, 600 is kinda in the middle.. I run 360lb rear's on my car and I think its a really happy medium for the street/track.. Above 500 it all feels the same to me.
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (DIRep972)
Well the reason I think this "In front wheel drive applications you want to have great dampening in the back but even better rebound in the front" chris is because I think you need the back of the car to be as firm as posible and keep from squating back during a hard launch or acceleration..
Its pritty much the same reasoning why you would put wheelie bars in the back only on those setups you want the rear end as loos as possible so the bars keep all the wieight of the car in the front end durring a launch instead of shifting back.
Rebound in the front I think is very important because on the better shocks out there it they conrol the motion and speed of the shock rod moving out which also prevents weight from going to the back...
And chris pritty much covered why I called a 600lb spring a happy medium, but really thou yeah its a shitty ride but I'm just thinking of the best components for a street car. And in this case ride would have to be sacraficed some.
trboCIVICWRX
Why do you think limit straps would be a bad idea?
Its pritty much the same reasoning why you would put wheelie bars in the back only on those setups you want the rear end as loos as possible so the bars keep all the wieight of the car in the front end durring a launch instead of shifting back.
Rebound in the front I think is very important because on the better shocks out there it they conrol the motion and speed of the shock rod moving out which also prevents weight from going to the back...
And chris pritty much covered why I called a 600lb spring a happy medium, but really thou yeah its a shitty ride but I'm just thinking of the best components for a street car. And in this case ride would have to be sacraficed some.
trboCIVICWRX
Why do you think limit straps would be a bad idea?
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (newgsr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newgsr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well the reason I think this "In front wheel drive applications you want to have great dampening in the back but even better rebound in the front" chris is because I think you need the back of the car to be as firm as posible and keep from squating back during a hard launch or acceleration..
Its pritty much the same reasoning why you would put wheelie bars in the back only on those setups you want the rear end as loos as possible so the bars keep all the wieight of the car in the front end durring a launch instead of shifting back.
Rebound in the front I think is very important because on the better shocks out there it they conrol the motion and speed of the shock rod moving out which also prevents weight from going to the back...
And chris pritty much covered why I called a 600lb spring a happy medium, but really thou yeah its a shitty ride but I'm just thinking of the best components for a street car. And in this case ride would have to be sacraficed some.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh ok, I feel the same about wanting the rear firm and not being able to squat. I guess I was confused becuase when you said alot of dampening I was thinking that would be soft where as no dampening would be hard.
Its pritty much the same reasoning why you would put wheelie bars in the back only on those setups you want the rear end as loos as possible so the bars keep all the wieight of the car in the front end durring a launch instead of shifting back.
Rebound in the front I think is very important because on the better shocks out there it they conrol the motion and speed of the shock rod moving out which also prevents weight from going to the back...
And chris pritty much covered why I called a 600lb spring a happy medium, but really thou yeah its a shitty ride but I'm just thinking of the best components for a street car. And in this case ride would have to be sacraficed some.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh ok, I feel the same about wanting the rear firm and not being able to squat. I guess I was confused becuase when you said alot of dampening I was thinking that would be soft where as no dampening would be hard.
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Despite some poor grammar in the initial post, I agree with most of your theories.
Keep at it, this is the kind of tech that is needed in here. I find suspension to be a closely guarded secret in the 10 second crowd.
Keep at it, this is the kind of tech that is needed in here. I find suspension to be a closely guarded secret in the 10 second crowd.
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (newgsr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newgsr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
trboCIVICWRX
Why do you think limit straps would be a bad idea?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Because for them to work properly, you want to preload them. Which will effectively limit your suspension travel. Plus, I dont think that the ride would be very good, because everytime the suspension tries to push the car back up after a bump, the body will just stop hard when the straps reach their limit.
Not to mention the potental frame stress/damage that could be caused by the up & downs of street/pothole driving...
thats just my opinion, I guess that the safety aspect of it concerns me. But its your car.
trboCIVICWRX
Why do you think limit straps would be a bad idea?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Because for them to work properly, you want to preload them. Which will effectively limit your suspension travel. Plus, I dont think that the ride would be very good, because everytime the suspension tries to push the car back up after a bump, the body will just stop hard when the straps reach their limit.
Not to mention the potental frame stress/damage that could be caused by the up & downs of street/pothole driving...
thats just my opinion, I guess that the safety aspect of it concerns me. But its your car.
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (trboCIVICWRX)
one more thing. have you actually used an innovative MSBC-1 yet? because you tout it as being the best, which I would agree with, but NOT for a street car.
again, its intended purpose is the dragstrip. using the MSBC-1 on th street would suck. You would have to keep monitoring it to make sure that its in the correct stage for what gear you are in. Because the only way that it knows is from counting clutch presses. which on th street isnt quite as "cut and dry" as it is on the track.
just wanted to make sure that the correct information is getting out there.
again, its intended purpose is the dragstrip. using the MSBC-1 on th street would suck. You would have to keep monitoring it to make sure that its in the correct stage for what gear you are in. Because the only way that it knows is from counting clutch presses. which on th street isnt quite as "cut and dry" as it is on the track.
just wanted to make sure that the correct information is getting out there.
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (trboCIVICWRX)
yeh limit straps on the street is a bad idea. You might be able to get away w/ it before heading to the street races on a saturday night(does anyone even do this anymore?) but daily driver its not practical.
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From: PACNW
Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (newgsr)
What are the most substantial (street) tires people run on the street? I have 16x7 wheels and was hoping to run a 245/45r16 tire, but that is pushing it on a 7" wheel. I'd prefer to not go as tall as a 245/50r16 for street use, just curious what others have been able to fit on 16x7 rims?
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (hpfsi)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hpfsi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What are the most substantial (street) tires people run on the street? I have 16x7 wheels and was hoping to run a 245/45r16 tire, but that is pushing it on a 7" wheel. I'd prefer to not go as tall as a 245/50r16 for street use, just curious what others have been able to fit on 16x7 rims?</TD></TR></TABLE>225 is the reccomended limit for 7in rims I'm running 8 in and only have 225's on them going to big will cause a loss of traction because you will be bend the the tyre onto the rim.
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (trboCIVICWRX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trboCIVICWRX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Because for them to work properly, you want to preload them. Which will effectively limit your suspension travel. Plus, I dont think that the ride would be very good, because everytime the suspension tries to push the car back up after a bump, the body will just stop hard when the straps reach their limit.
Not to mention the potental frame stress/damage that could be caused by the up & downs of street/pothole driving...
thats just my opinion, I guess that the safety aspect of it concerns me. But its your car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you for straightening me out on the limit straps and the MSBC-1,
The only reason why I put down the limiting straps is because of some of the hardcore street racers but than again I also thought about what Chris said and now I'm thinking that more people hwy race than go out and do stop and go's so the limiter straps would purity much be out of the question at this point.
As far as the Innovative unit goes I have never personally ran one but from reading all about it on a couple of forums it seemed to me that it was the best one to go with, and with some of the guys on here making 500whp its kind of hard keeping the wheels from not spinning at the top of higher gears so gear based boost control is what I was after when I was thinking about boost controllers.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong again here but didn't that scammer mike guy (motormatrix) run a 255/50/16 on just a regular old 16x7" slipstream??
Because for them to work properly, you want to preload them. Which will effectively limit your suspension travel. Plus, I dont think that the ride would be very good, because everytime the suspension tries to push the car back up after a bump, the body will just stop hard when the straps reach their limit.
Not to mention the potental frame stress/damage that could be caused by the up & downs of street/pothole driving...
thats just my opinion, I guess that the safety aspect of it concerns me. But its your car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you for straightening me out on the limit straps and the MSBC-1,
The only reason why I put down the limiting straps is because of some of the hardcore street racers but than again I also thought about what Chris said and now I'm thinking that more people hwy race than go out and do stop and go's so the limiter straps would purity much be out of the question at this point.
As far as the Innovative unit goes I have never personally ran one but from reading all about it on a couple of forums it seemed to me that it was the best one to go with, and with some of the guys on here making 500whp its kind of hard keeping the wheels from not spinning at the top of higher gears so gear based boost control is what I was after when I was thinking about boost controllers.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong again here but didn't that scammer mike guy (motormatrix) run a 255/50/16 on just a regular old 16x7" slipstream??
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Re: taking a stab at setting up a 400-500whp street cars drivetrain (newgsr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newgsr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Someone correct me if I'm wrong again here but didn't that scammer mike guy (motormatrix) run a 255/50/16 on just a regular old 16x7" slipstream??
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes he did, and it looks like Geoff's civic coupe on the Full-Race website might be running them too.
Looks like Mike trimmed his bumper a little bit just in front of the tire, but otherwise both cars' fenders look uncut. Both of my front fenders are in mediocre condition so I was going to do a bit of rolling and maybe some fiberglass work allow a bit more wheel travel.
Modified by hpfsi at 11:20 AM 6/9/2004
Someone correct me if I'm wrong again here but didn't that scammer mike guy (motormatrix) run a 255/50/16 on just a regular old 16x7" slipstream??
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes he did, and it looks like Geoff's civic coupe on the Full-Race website might be running them too.
Looks like Mike trimmed his bumper a little bit just in front of the tire, but otherwise both cars' fenders look uncut. Both of my front fenders are in mediocre condition so I was going to do a bit of rolling and maybe some fiberglass work allow a bit more wheel travel.
Modified by hpfsi at 11:20 AM 6/9/2004
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