It seems as though I've got it narrowed down to the following:

Hawk HPS
Cobalt GT-Sports
Axxis Ultimates

EDIT: AEM/Nissin and HP+ have been bumped off this list! Hawk HPS has been added to the list of pads that I'll consider.

This is for an Accord so Carbotechs aren't an option (I will call them up to confirm they don't make anything for my car). I also have rear drums so I'll only be upgrading the front pads.

Anyways, it's for the usual street/weekend autocross deal (3-4 autocrosses a month). My only comfort requirement is that there isn't excessive noice/dust, so the Hawk HP+ may lose out. I think the Axxis Ultimates seem to have a nice bite and seem to be much more streetable compared to the HP+ (noise/dust) based on what I've read here.

What I'd like to know is how "hard" do each of the listed pads bite? I'm still trying to get as much seat time as possible, and won't decide how much "bite" I want until after the next 2 autocrosses, where I will focus more on how I brake.

Right now, it feels as though there isn't enough initial "bite" and that its too "soft" with OEM pads. I think I'm not using enough of the brake right now, but it just seems so soft and gradual. I think I'd be more comfortable to have more initial "bite." Am I wrong?

Finally, what is all this non-sense about bedding?


Modified by LX4CYL at 6:43 AM 5/20/2004


Modified by LX4CYL at 6:44 AM 5/20/2004

 

AEM Sux. If you want bite, HP+. If you dont want the dust, get the Ultimates.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want bite, HP+. If you dont want the dust, get the Ultimates.</TD></TR></TABLE>

duh I already knew that

How do the more expensive cobalt GT-S compare? (noise/bite/dust)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is for an Accord so Carbotechs aren't an option </TD></TR></TABLE>

:confused:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you dont want the dust, get the Ultimates.</TD></TR></TABLE>

:really confused:

 

Carbotech doesn't make an application for the Accord. I will call them up tomorrow to make sure. Hoever, I'm confused as to why you are confused by .RJs statement about the Ultimates.

I'm confus0red

 

Ultimates still dust.

HP+ dust alot.

If you dont want any dust, stick with the OEM pads

 

eh, I can live with some dust. My nice wheels I used to have on the car rarely were dust free with OEM pads.

 

BTW, is there anything wrong with using these "better" pads with 400 treadwear tires? I'm trying to stay on these crappy tires as long as possible before forcing myself to buy set of Azenis

 

Axxis Ultimates

i have the Axxis Ultimates w/ 400 treadwear tires(Dunlop SP Sport A2), they've been great, but i havent done any auto-x or track events yet but i will in the coming months....

 

I have used Axxis Ultimates and Hawk Hp+ at DE events and on the street in my 2000 Accord Lx. The HP+ are very loud under low speed braking(School bus squeeling loud). Ultimates don't make a sound. Hp+ had more bite than the Ultimates, but the Ultimates seemed to have more bite when cold. Both dust a lot. I would reccomend Hp+ if you plan on doing any road courses. Get Axxis Ultimates if you plan on doing autoXing. Never tried the Cobalts. I think 96-00 Civic Ex's use the same pad as a 6th gen 4 cyl accord, so you may be able to get Carbotechs. HP+ seems to be enough pad for my car with Khumo Mxs.

 

Hawks and get them cryo treated. Treat your new rotors to a cold bath if you can as well. http://www.300degrees.com/

 

Call Cobalt and explain your needs. They can tell you the best pad for your needs, and sell them to you at a great price. Cobalt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what is all this non-sense about bedding?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not nonsense. The purpose of bedding is not just to get the surface of the brake pad to mate with the surface of the rotor, but to put a uniform layer of brake pad material onto the surface of the rotor. Here, read this.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW, is there anything wrong with using these "better" pads with 400 treadwear tires?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, but your braking distances will be severely limited by your tires (assuming that these tires don't stick all that well).

 

I just picked up a set of PBR/AXXIS Ultimates, and they are great for the money.

It has much better bite than my OEM pads, however, they do dust more than OEM pads. You just have to clean your wheels more often

 

Have had Axxis and the HP+

The HP+ isn't very rotor friendly, loud, and dust more than the Ultimates but it has more bite when its warmed up and they are less prone to fade on you on road courses.

The Axxis is rotor friendly, does dust more than stock but less than HP+ doesn't really make a sound and they have great inital bite but i they tend to start fading alot earlier than the HP+ on road courses.

 

Alright, based on what you guys and others have told me, the HP+ are more suitable for a roadracer that gets his/her brakes hot. I will never get them that hot since I'm autocrossing and daily driving, so I don't want HP+ and have booted them off the list.

Now, I am considering the following:

Hawk HPS
Cobalt GT-Sports
Axxis Ultimates

How do these 3 compare with each other??? I haven't heard anything about the cobalts yet. How about the Hawk HPS?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not nonsense. The purpose of bedding is not just to get the surface of the brake pad to mate with the surface of the rotor, but to put a uniform layer of brake pad material onto the surface of the rotor. Here, read this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The nonsense I was referring to were all the different theories about how to do it

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, but your braking distances will be severely limited by your tires (assuming that these tires don't stick all that well).
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, the tires suck, and I think I am better off waiting until I slap on a set of azenis, THEN upgrade the pads.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by OEMaccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think 96-00 Civic Ex's use the same pad as a 6th gen 4 cyl accord, so you may be able to get Carbotechs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Call Cobalt and explain your needs. They can tell you the best pad for your needs, and sell them to you at a great price. Cobalt </TD></TR></TABLE>

I will definitely call them up and see if they have anything for the Accord (Carbotech, not Cobalt; Cobalt does make pads for my car!)

 

Finally, I think I should wait until I get better tires before upgrading pads, correct?

finally, how to brake pad shims work with initial bite and noise levels? Can I use anti-squeal gel?

 

You seem to be putting an awful lot of thought into brakepads, when in the grand scheme of things a lot of other items are holding you back (such as tires, the automatic tranny, etc).

Ultimates are proven, somewhat cheap and easy to get. They can be had for next to nothing on ebay. I'd suggest getting those and then putting the funds into tires.

 

I don't know if you noticed, but I put an awful lot of thought into a lot of things that I haven't even done yet

When I make a change to a car I ask myself why I am changing something an engineer has spent time setting up, and what will be the benefits/consequences of making that change, and how this tradeoff will affect what is most important: how I drive the car.

Shouldn't I do tires first then mess with the brake pads?

 

i'm on cobalt GT-S's and i like them alot.

good initial bite, no fade, almost no noise, but alot of dust relative to OE pads. you can street em, but i usually slap em on for events and take em off afterwards since i'm switching wheels anyway.

 

if you want something that doesn't make a lot of dust and is better than stock... *cough*EBC Greenstuffs*cough* might be okay for your application

 

Still not sure why you're inclined to take Hawk HP+ off the list because they are, in my view, very similar to the Cobalt GT-S. Both are billed as a multi purpose pad (street, auto-x, some track). Both come up to temp easily, both have good bite and modulation characteristics, both can be squeeky, and both are fairly dusty SOBs. I've used them both, and both get from me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The nonsense I was referring to were all the different theories about how to do it </TD></TR></TABLE>

The bedding procedure is pretty much the same everywhere I've heard it. Six to ten fairly gentle stops at intervals of 1/4 to 1/2 mile. Followed by six to ten VERY HARD stops at the same intervals, which should be enough to get the pads to fade and smell. Immediately followed by parking the car and letting it cool down completely (8-12 hours or overnight).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I will definitely call them up and see if they have anything for the Accord (Carbotech, not Cobalt; Cobalt does make pads for my car!)</TD></TR></TABLE>

In addition to their own pads, Cobalt also sells other brands, including Hawk and Axxis. They will give you the best advice about all the pads and are not biased towards selling their own products over others.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Finally, I think I should wait until I get better tires before upgrading pads, correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would. You don't have to, but you won't reap the full benefit with crappy tires.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can I use anti-squeal gel?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I always do...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The bedding procedure is pretty much the same everywhere I've heard it. Up to 10 fairly gentle stops at intervals of 1/4 to 1/2 mile. Followed by up to 10 VERY HARD stops at the same intervals, which should be enough to get the pads to fade and smell. Immediately followed by parking the car and letting it cool down completely (8-12 hours or overnight).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Most of the bedding recommendations are to slow down from a certain speed (but not to a stop), 45-50 mph to 10mph for example or bedding on track @ 6/10ths and letting them sit anywhere from 30 minutes to 12 hrs. All depends on the pad... and some pads, like the Ultimates i've found dont need much bedding at all to work.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would. You don't have to, but you won't reap the full benefit with crappy tires.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Better initial bite, modulation, and release are much more important to me and why I prefer to toss the OEM pads for autocross.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Better initial bite, modulation, and release are much more important to me and why I prefer to toss the OEM pads for autocross.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How much modulation do j00 really do at an autocross, RJ? We're talking about ABS equiped cars, no?

I did none to next-to-none. Initial bite is pretty much all j00 gain with aftermarket pads (which is always a plus) [as long as j00 select the right pad]

And the best mod one can do for an autocross is the tires (actually same probably appplies to track events) So I would start with getting better tires.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most of the bedding recommendations are to slow down from a certain speed (but not to a stop), 45-50 mph to 10mph for example or bedding on track @ 6/10ths and letting them sit anywhere from 30 minutes to 12 hrs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have never heard anyone recommend "bedding" on the track. Not in the Stoptech white paper linked above, not in the instructions that come from Cobalt, not anywhere else.

If you don't do a bedding procedure and start using the pads on the track, that's not bedding. Yes they will fade big time the first session or two you get them up to full heat ("green pad syndrome"), and this will outgas the pads sufficiently to prevent them from fading after that point (assuming they are good quality pads) - which is a good thing - but this won't put down the uniform layer of pad material and allow it to cool sufficiently to provide maximum bite and resistance to shudder that a real bedding procedure accomplishes.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All depends on the pad... and some pads, like the Ultimates i've found dont need much bedding at all to work.</TD></TR></TABLE>

All pads will "work" (stop the car) without bedding. But that does not mean that they won't benefit from bedding by providing greater bite and resistance to shudder. And the bedding procedure remains the same (which was the original question here).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And the best mod one can do for an autocross is the tires (actually same probably appplies to track events)</TD></TR></TABLE>

It does.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So I would start with getting better tires.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So would I. Except maybe for your first few events, when you're a total beginner - when you're just learning and not using the full capabilities of the car anyway. In which case, I would wait on tires AND brakes.