As most of you know, I tried Roger Foo's trick of swapping the front upper control arms side to side on my Integra. The idea is that it moves the upper ball joint rearward, adding some caster.

I can't track down an old alignment sheet, but I do have the factory specs to compare to. Here's what I ended up with (factory/swapped)

Left front: 0.2/3.0 Right front: 0.2/2.9

Something else that I thought was interesting. I seem to have picked up some negative camber. I've got 1.9 and 2.0 degrees now - but at a substantially higher ride height. Don't know if this is another benefit of the swap or not.

I have also lost the tendency for the right front to have more camber than the left front...despite that the right front was higher up (due to the crossweighting).

It should be noted that in these past 4 weeks (!) of non-stop fixing stuff, I replaced the front upper arms and steering knuckles (along with their balljoints) with ones from a 2000 GS-R that was found at the junkyard. All the damage to this donor was in the back, so the front end was intact. Perhaps some of my old arms were a bit bent after 3 years of gators and a little incident at Belle Chere

I'll follow up after this weekend and let everyone know how tire wear and handling feel like this. The cornering limits (and noise levels) of the car are such that I really can't thrash it on public streets without landing myself in prison.

Oh yeah - you G Stock Type R guys...would something like this be stock class legal? I kinda doubt it but it's something to think about.

 

I am in sooooo much trouble this weekend.

 

LOL....

I haven't swapped the control arms on an actual car yet but I do have the A-arm mounts on my Associated RC-10T swapped. That was mainly for less toe in as the truck is "street" setup... I think I might try swapping the control arms while I'm building up the integra though - it's getting totally transformed anyways...

 

Thanks for posting your specs so soon Karl. I had hoped to get my car on the rack this week, but it's been raining here all week and I haven't driven the car to work. The last thread got sorta lost, so here's the before and after pictures I took. Just based on the looks alone, it has improved caster.

Before:


After:





[Modified by johng, 8:56 PM 8/7/2002]

 

I really hope the prelude will do this =~)


[Modified by Honda318dx, 7:30 PM 11/1/2001]

 

Jeez. Factory spec on the NSX is like 8deg. I wonder why we have so much caster? I should buy some books so I have a clue. Heh.

-Mike

 

I don't auto-X... but for track use it just might be worth a try!

FYI... ECHC rules say...
Note: All suspension parts must retain their original attachment points and the
suspension must maintain its original configuration.

Wonder if that would prevent the control arm swappage?

William

 

The attachment points haven't changed - the control arms bolt right up to the chassis in the same place they were before. Attachment points refers to where on the tub of the car they mount.

Of course, if I beat Scott (not bloody likely) this weekend at CMP, he may take issue with this interpretation

--Karl, who if he wins, will be visiting the Kills forum

 

The "original Configuration" part might be the only problem. But it's not like swapping left to right with the stock pieces requires any additional costs or can only be done with certain cars.

krshultz, your integra setup is basically what I plan on going with/have: GC koni's/Eibach race, Autopower 6pt cage, all bushings replace with Energy suspension, AEM CAI (have). I liked the page you did on the Autopower 6pt cage install - Looks like it's time for me to buy the cage so I can wait for it to come in...

P.S. I like your style of humor too...

P.S.S Hey I wonder what a Left-Right swap of the trailing arms would do....

 

While I don't think this is stock class legal (for us GS ITR owners) I am curious to see how this affects handling and how much it affects ride height. Can you quantify the amount it raised ride height?

This (to me) sounds like a much better thing to do in STS for example where the rules are much more open and/or where people are on a budget and trying to get some additional caster and camber without sinking a ton into an expensive suspension setup.

 

It didn't really raise the ride height - I turned the coilovers up a few turns. What I should have been more clear on is that even with the ride height raised probably 1/2 an inch, I still have 2 deg. static camber.

And BTW - with 2 deg. negative and the 225 Hoosiers, tire wear was damn near perfect this past weekend. I think this is a winner.

 

Karl,

Good for the tire wear but how did the handling feel? Turn in? Stability? Are your fenders rolled to fit the 225's?

Victor Penner

 

Victor - in answer to your questions...

Handling was different - the front of the car was better planted. That said...I corrected some things in the rear of the car, like an incorrectly installed rear sway, that may have affected the car. Basically I took the suspension apart and regreased and reassembled everything.

So bottom line, I can't authoritatively tell you that this change helped handling, since I changed some other things on the car. What I do know is that I've got the same camber, higher ride height, and better tire wear.

That being said...

Turn in is very "right now." Stability is much improved. The steering wheel doesn't want to fight me nearly as much now as it has in the past.

My fenders are rolled to accomodate the 225 Hoosiers. The fronts were a non issue (I pulled the fender liners out and rolled the fronts out). Rears rubbed ever so slightly on the lower control arm. A spacer would fix this, but honestly it was so trivial I didn't bother. All it did was kind of polish the inside sidewall of the tire - no harm done.

Does that help?

 

Thanks Karl,

John G. and Scott have tried this also haven't they? Is everybody happy? The reason I ask about the tire fitment is that it doesn't say in the GCR that I can roll my fenders for T2. The logical thought is that the 225 would be better than the 205 but they race on 195 in Japan so I am wondering if I should just stick with the 205's. I remember that Endicott or Sapp posted on this board that they had run 225 on the stock itr 15x6 and people jumped down his throat. Last week I was looking through the GrassRoots Motorsports and the Volvo article had the ITB Volvo champ running 225 on 15x6 and they looked fine to me.

Victor Penner

 

Victor (and others),
My experience with the swap so far is very positive. Last weekend I took a drivers school at Bremerton and the car handled really well. Maybe it was a mental thing, but turn-in and overall steering felt GREAT and the car felt fast. The instructors were along for rides at the different excersizes and most said that the car felt glued. I still need to get it in for a alignment check though . Overall, I simply can't see any downsides about it. Just don't let my local competition know, or I'll loose any edge I may have found .

On a side note; one of the lead instructors rode with me and actually said I had "the best program he's seen in a while". Another club member wanted me to speak about Solo2 at one of their next club meetings. I'm not sure I qualify, but it felt pretty cool.

 

I'm pretty sure you can't get a 225 on the rear without rolling the fender lip. You might be able to if you ran tons of negative camber, but I don't know if you could make that all work out. I believe that the 225's are worth alot of speed for me. If you're stuck with the rules, you really might consider running 225's on the front, and 205's on the rear. I've mentioned before that Scott Zellner says it can't be made to work right, and that no serious club racers in the US do it, but look at any Porsche or real mid engined race car and the idea that success might be achieved with different sized wheel/tires doesn't look like a we todd id idea. And if it should prove a little faster but a little scarier - well, what kind of racer are you? And just for the record: I'd prefer to run my 225's on 7.5 or even 8 inch rims, but I own a bunch of 7 inch rims. I think...think....225's on 6 inch rims would be awfully squirmy and that would bug me alot, despite their having more grip.

I am running my front upper control arms swapped to the high caster position, but like Karl I did it along with alot of other stuff and so can't isolate its effect. I have seen undisclosed real G3 race cars run by people who know all about swapping arms operated purposely in the LOW caster position. They wouldn't comment, and so neither can I. In the larger world most everyone I know likes lots of caster, especially if they can get it without having too much trail. By any reasonable standard 2 degrees is not alot.

Scott, who yawns at the very mention of a-arms...unless you ask if you should keep after your camber adjustment screws...YES!





[Modified by RR98ITR, 7:24 PM 11/6/2001]

 

Scott,John,

Thanks,

The Spec for the R in T2 is up to a 225/45/15 on a 15x7. If that can only be done by rolling my lips then I will do it and argue the point if someone says something. I will also swap over the control arms and see how I like it.

One other question, I can legally cornerweight my car but I cannot add camber correction devices so what should I do? Adjust camber by lowering or raising the corners with the coilovers and then leaving the weight where it falls or adjust the weight to the best balance and have slightly skewed camber settings?

Victor Penner

 

Victor,

Since you cannot add camber correction devices you need all the negative camber gain you can get on the outside wheel when turned - swap the arms. While you've got them off look at them real hard and see if you think the holes on the inner ends of the a-arms might be able to accidentally migrate toward the ball joint an "insignificant" amount in the course of repair of crash damage.

Take the thing as low as you can get it without bottoming in normal use - you'll know because of the sudden massive push. Don't sweat minor differences in camber left to right - especially since you can't control it. You shouldn't have to compromise between front ride height and cornerweighting too much - with your rates the rear is pretty insensitive and you probably can handle a fair range of rake (mines 1/2 to 3/4 higher in the rear).

Scott, who says "yeah, you can always unroll the lips if you get protested......and besides: they wouldn't allow 225's if they couldn't fit...


[Modified by RR98ITR, 9:14 PM 11/6/2001]

 

you've got to me kidding me. stupid idiots on this board jumped on guys like Endicott or Sapp?

back in 1996 or so I ran Yoko A008R 225/50/15 in my delsol with the old 5 spoke 15x6 GSR's. it cleared just fine. it rubbed slightly in the front only during full lock and in the rear it rubs the control arm slightly during hard cornering. no big deal. if you get the width and offset right you can do 225/45/15 on 15x7.5 in the front it should be perfect. the rear you don't really need anything wider than 205. unless the rules say you can't use different size tires i would use either 195/55/15 or 205/50/15 on the back. no matter for road race or autox.

here're couple of old pix:








[Modified by frank@b16a.com, 9:34 PM 11/6/2001]

 

I think it's pretty clear-cut case that it's illegal. Take a different example and it's more obvious: What if your springs were the same height/diameter front and rear but the rears were softer than the fronts. Would it be fair to swap them to dramatically change the handling characteristics? I would say no. Plus, there's a precedent set at the Solo2 Nationals a few years back: an ES Saturn (1st gen) configured his pop-up headlight to be half-way open in order to get colder air to the intake. It was determined that this was a modification in contrast to what the manufacturer intended and was therefore illegal. All of the runs he completed with this configuration (1 or 2) were DQ'd. He was allowed to finish his remaining runs once he put the headlight back in a factory configuration. Still stock parts, yet illegal.

Just because you *can* put the parts in a particular configuration other than the factory did doesn't make it legal.

 

Eeeek. After reading Fauth's post I realize I must sound like a major cheating bastard - this isn't the age of Donohue and Yunick. My statements are always made in the context of my own non-sanctioned activities, and in the case of response to Victor the fact that nothing he can do within reason, legal or otherwise, is going to make the ITR competitive against the dominant cars in T2. In that context I have the arguably wrong view that changes that make the car more fun or nicer to drive are worth implementing despite the rules.

Scott, who thinks the best place for the truly rule **** is Formula Mazda......in club racing I see so much obviously illegal stuff that it's just ridiculous....

 

...I must have missed something?

 

Dude, you missed it?

A bunch of the World Challenge guys were on the board last night - they logged on from a new Hooters style internet cafe.

Anyway, they were chased off by a bunch of East Coast Honda-Tech punks - bunch of **** talkers you know. I stayed out of it because I get confused when I'm not in Ukranian mode.

I should have piped in with my latest idea though. Driver adjustable front camber. It would be easy to do with some really strong push/pull cables. In case you get protested, put a zerk at the drivers end and claim it's a ball joint lube line.

In all fairness to the punks, those World Challenge guys were not able to think outside the box.

Scott, who says "box?....Box?.........Booooooxxxxxxxx!............ ..thunk.

(Scott has nothing against East Coast H-T guys except that there are alot of them that all live close enough to each other and great tracks to have lots of fun playing with each other often.)


[Modified by RR98ITR, 9:12 AM 11/7/2001]

 

Sounds like a good explanation to me. And...might be something the national types may want to look for on other cars. It's actually pretty easy to spot once the wheel is off. I figured it'd probably be illegal.

Another quick suggestion that I can make is for other people with urethane bushings. Lube them with moly grease. All squeaks, and most importantly all binding, seems to be gone with this goop up in there.

 

And boy, do we take advantage of it!