Tried resizing the pics but I think they're still large... sorry. Here are pics of the common upgrades.... new stainless hex-head screws, stainless washers and star washers. Honda boot to replace the Skunk2 boot, notice the size difference.







Everything is installed on my 1998 Integra with Prokits and Koni Yellows. Checked the full travel of the arms and everything clears however the space available above the arm is just over an inch with the weight of the car on the suspension. I think I'm gonna be pounding the arms into the subframe. Am I wrong... is this indeed streetable with only 1 inch above the arm?

Thanks

 

Why didn't you strip the powdercoating on the slide rails? That's the main source of slippage...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why didn't you strip the powdercoating on the slide rails? </TD></TR></TABLE>
on both sides...

also install star washers on each side and use a lock nut on the bolts (my set had longer bolts on it).

 

I stripped all the paint and used big washers. No slips ... yet.

 

I've done the stripping, bolt, and star washer thing. It is NOT enough if you bounce off the curbing w/ high spring rates. We'll be trying something else at VIR next week.

Warren

 

Take a BFH (big f**kin hammer) and pound the seams above the upper arms flat....you'll have no problem with upper A arm travel then

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Warren &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've done the stripping, bolt, and star washer thing. It is NOT enough if you bounce off the curbing w/ high spring rates. We'll be trying something else at VIR next week.

Warren</TD></TR></TABLE>

Watchoo gonna try WarRen??

 

Be carefull using stainless bolts, 99% of the time they are not NEARLY as strong as a grade 5 bolt even. You have to be VERY carefull that they are of a high enough grade.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MightyMouseTech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Be carefull using stainless bolts, 99% of the time they are not NEARLY as strong as a grade 5 bolt even. You have to be VERY carefull that they are of a high enough grade.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yep those SS bolts are A2 grade and they are weak. if u want SS bolts use 18-8 grade

 

I don't like the design, there is no positive stop to keep the bolt from migrating. I really don't feel like re-aligning my car on a weekly basis

 

I have to say, in the year that I have had the Skunk2 kit on my car (with stock pieces) there has been no slippage during heavy autox or street use. Lets hope that doesn't change...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JCracer723 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
yep those SS bolts are A2 grade and they are weak. if u want SS bolts use 18-8 grade </TD></TR></TABLE>

A2 is probably the cheapest stainless bolts you can get but in my opinion will do the job. I torqued these suckers down really tight and they didn't break. Normally I would even come close to torquing that tight with a regular M6 machine screws.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Maxx44 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Take a BFH (big f**kin hammer) and pound the seams above the upper arms flat....you'll have no problem with upper A arm travel then </TD></TR></TABLE>

The seam you are refering to... is it covered by the plastic fender? If so the arms clear the seam by about 1/8-1/4".

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
on both sides...

also install star washers on each side and use a lock nut on the bolts (my set had longer bolts on it).</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll install the bolt after I get it aligned.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why didn't you strip the powdercoating on the slide rails? That's the main source of slippage...</TD></TR></TABLE>

When torquing down the bolts I found a very good impression in the steel, I don't think stripping the paint is an issue in my case... these stainless star washers are sharp suckers, lots of biting edges!!


Onto my original question... will approximately 1" above the control arm be enough? My gut says no however no banging of the control arm yet. Just wondering if I should install the stocker and sell these suckers.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stumpyf4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

A2 is probably the cheapest stainless bolts you can get but in my opinion will do the job. I torqued these suckers down really tight and they didn't break. Normally I would even come close to torquing that tight with a regular M6 machine screws.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well if u think that 45,000 – 70,000 of Minimum Yield Strength (psi) and 80,000 – 90,000 of Minimum Tensile Strength (psi) would do then its ko i guess.. but thats way below grade 5 bolts. i think honda uses grade 10.9(metric) wich its almost the same as grade 8 bolts so u do the math

good luck tho

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JCracer723 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well if u think that 45,000 – 70,000 of Minimum Yield Strength (psi) and 80,000 – 90,000 of Minimum Tensile Strength (psi) would do then its ko i guess.. but thats way below grade 5 bolts. i think honda uses grade 10.9(metric) wich its almost the same as grade 8 bolts so u do the math
</TD></TR></TABLE>

EEkk, I forgot A2 was that weak. Everytime those bolts are tightened they are definitely going into the permanent deformation range (they will permanently stretch every time you tighten them) and will break after only a couple of loosen/tighten cycles. Hell, vibration alone may be enough to deform them.

 

I wouldnt trust those things without set screws in addition to all the mentioned "fixes"

when is someone going to design a kit that uses Heim joints , jeez I gotta do everything...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JCracer723 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well if u think that 45,000 – 70,000 of Minimum Yield Strength (psi) and 80,000 – 90,000 of Minimum Tensile Strength (psi) would do then its ko i guess.. but thats way below grade 5 bolts. i think honda uses grade 10.9(metric) which its almost the same as grade 8 bolts so u do the math

good luck tho


</TD></TR></TABLE>
Honda don't have bolts here on their control arms... but lets look at some other M6 applications. Valve cover studs... if these are grade 8 than I must be the Hulk... these one of these suckers snap every time I take of the cover . Spares onhand when they do but drilling them out with a open valve train

Now for some math:
Quick guesstimate the load these bolts can handle using your stated properties, using nominal dimensions (not correct but roughly):
Area = pi*r^2 = 3.14*1/8^2 = 0.0490625in^2
Load to Yield (min) = 45000psi * 0.0490625si = 2200lbs per bolt (weight of a CRX perhaps)
4 bolts per control arm = 8800lbs to yield these suckers (weight of a H2 )

Yea it's way below the grade 5 bolts but IMHO grade 5 is overkill for this application, plus I feel the ductility of the A2 is better than having brittle bolts.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Doctor CorteZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wouldnt trust those things without set screws in addition to all the mentioned "fixes"

when is someone going to design a kit that uses Heim joints , jeez I gotta do everything...</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are Hemi control arms made.... they're pretty sweet, adjustable caster and camber but without the bushings I don't think they're streetable. Plus they cost a ton.

No one commented on the space above the control arm...I'm gonna run as is this summer, hopefully they don't bash a hole in the frame.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Doctor CorteZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wouldnt trust those things without set screws in addition to all the mentioned "fixes" </TD></TR></TABLE>

Why set screws?

I've seen sackdz's picture. If those bolts slip, those set screws arent gonna save you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stumpyf4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Honda don't have bolts here on their control arms... but lets look at some other M6 applications. Valve cover studs... if these are grade 8 than I must be the Hulk... these one of these suckers snap every time I take of the cover . Spares onhand when they do but drilling them out with a open valve train

Now for some math:
Quick guesstimate the load these bolts can handle using your stated properties, using nominal dimensions (not correct but roughly):
Area = pi*r^2 = 3.14*1/8^2 = 0.0490625in^2
Load to Yield (min) = 45000psi * 0.0490625si = 2200lbs per bolt (weight of a CRX perhaps)
4 bolts per control arm = 8800lbs to yield these suckers (weight of a H2 )

Yea it's way below the grade 5 bolts but IMHO grade 5 is overkill for this application, plus I feel the ductility of the A2 is better than having brittle bolts.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok well then good luck

 

I certainly wouldn't use low grade stainless screws anywhere in the suspension of a car. If it fails you would not want to show that sheared bolt to anyone. If you are worried about corrosion, just use Never Seeze type product on the threads.

Has anyone tried machining a few spacers of different lengths to fit in the slot between the screw and the curved slot end? Just align the car with two screws tightened and then insert spacers and last pair of screws. It might even be a way of getting calibrated camber adjustements. Just make four spacers in lengths of xx mm in the range you need. Thoughts?

By the way, for those that have observed motion, which way do they move, towards the outside?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stumpyf4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Honda don't have bolts here on their control arms... but lets look at some other M6 applications. Valve cover studs... if these are grade 8 than I must be the Hulk... these one of these suckers snap every time I take of the cover . Spares onhand when they do but drilling them out with a open valve train

Now for some math:
Quick guesstimate the load these bolts can handle using your stated properties, using nominal dimensions (not correct but roughly):
Area = pi*r^2 = 3.14*1/8^2 = 0.0490625in^2
Load to Yield (min) = 45000psi * 0.0490625si = 2200lbs per bolt (weight of a CRX perhaps)
4 bolts per control arm = 8800lbs to yield these suckers (weight of a H2 )

Yea it's way below the grade 5 bolts but IMHO grade 5 is overkill for this application, plus I feel the ductility of the A2 is better than having brittle bolts.


There are Hemi control arms made.... they're pretty sweet, adjustable caster and camber but without the bushings I don't think they're streetable. Plus they cost a ton.

No one commented on the space above the control arm...I'm gonna run as is this summer, hopefully they don't bash a hole in the frame. </TD></TR></TABLE>

8800 lbs sounds like a lot, until you factor impact loading.

I haven't done the math but look at it this way: for our 500 lb FSAE car we calculated loads on some suspension members in excess of 2,000 lbs.

Also, fatigue is an issue especially with lower grade bolts. For suspension members on a racing car, it might be a good idea to skip SAE altogether and go with AN (aircraft grade) fasteners. Aside from their yield stress the quality control is much better than SAE grade bolts, It might be overkill but why take the chance?

EDIT: I don't mean replace all the factory honda bolts!


Modified by Angry Joe at 9:40 AM 4/23/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stumpyf4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now for some math:
Quick guesstimate the load these bolts can handle using your stated properties, using nominal dimensions (not correct but roughly):
Area = pi*r^2 = 3.14*1/8^2 = 0.0490625in^2
Load to Yield (min) = 45000psi * 0.0490625si = 2200lbs per bolt (weight of a CRX perhaps)
4 bolts per control arm = 8800lbs to yield these suckers (weight of a H2 )
</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are a couple flaws with these calculations. First off, 6mm is the outside diameter of the shaft. Once you cut the threads into it, the minimum diameter is much smaller, more like 5mm. Secondly, you're not taking into the account that the sharp bottom of the thread acts as a stress riser. This will SIGNIFICANTLY weaken it. Think about it: you came up with a figure of over a ton for a single bolt. Do you really think you could suspend a ton from one of those? Maybe a few hundred pounds, but that'd be about it.

Of course you're not suspending the entire car from those bolts, so the real question is whether or not they can take the combined stress of the stretching due to whatever torque you put on them plus the cyclic stresses from use. I have no clue how to analyze that myself, but I do think that I'd personally want to use at least grade 5.

I like descartesfool's idea of using properly-sized spacers to keep them in place. Can anyone answer the question about which direction they slip?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
. Do you really think you could suspend a ton from one of those? Maybe a few hundred pounds, but that'd be about it.

Of course you're not suspending the entire car from those bolts, so the real question is whether or not they can take the combined stress of the stretching due to whatever torque you put on them plus the cyclic stresses from use. I have no clue how to analyze that myself, but I do think that I'd personally want to use at least grade 5.

I like descartesfool's idea of using properly-sized spacers to keep them in place. Can anyone answer the question about which direction they slip?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've performed load tests on harness bars where a steady 7,000 lbs (that's 3.5 tons) load was taken through two 7/16 inch grade 5 bolts in single shear.

Bolts can and do take loads that are higher than the weight of your car, which sounds silly but when you factor cornering, aceleration, braking and bump/impact (not to mention simple leverage) the numbers get very big.

Last, the bolts would probably slip outwards towards the wheel. Loads during hard cornering are much higher on the outside wheels.

--Angry Joe, who believes you could suspend a Honda Accord with a single 7/16" bolt, but doesn't reccomend you try it


Modified by Angry Joe at 10:15 AM 4/24/2004


Modified by Angry Joe at 10:16 AM 4/24/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

There are a couple flaws with these calculations. First off, 6mm is the outside diameter of the shaft. Once you cut the threads into it, the minimum diameter is much smaller, more like 5mm. Secondly, you're not taking into the account that the sharp bottom of the thread acts as a stress riser. This will SIGNIFICANTLY weaken it. Think about it: you came up with a figure of over a ton for a single bolt. Do you really think you could suspend a ton from one of those? Maybe a few hundred pounds, but that'd be about it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Quick and dirty calculations... hence my comment rough calculations. I could go through all the bolt strength calculations and **** but I don't have time to look that stuff up.

No way a few hundred pounds in loaded in tension. I've seen plastic overmolded onto a 3/16" nylon cord sustain over 700lbs, I personally tested it. 30 samples tested 24 hours after molding. No mechanical connection of the cord to the plastic... plain overmolding. I think you're under estimating the stregth of steel.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Of course you're not suspending the entire car from those bolts, so the real question is whether or not they can take the combined stress of the stretching due to whatever torque you put on them plus the cyclic stresses from use. I have no clue how to analyze that myself, but I do think that I'd personally want to use at least grade 5.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly... application is to hold the balljoint plate in place. Statically no or viritually no load of these bolts. Torqued down correctly I don't think this setup will fail..... BUT I'll pick up some stronger stuff tomorrow. I see what they carry in metric.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Angry Joe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Last, the bolts would probably slip outwards towards the wheel. Loads during hard cornering are much higher on the outside wheels.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, they will slip inwards.

Warren

 

That replaces the upper arm, right? The balljoint is going to get forced out if that is the case.