Crower 404's tuned, results
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Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: assville, MI, USA
Crower 404's tuned, results
About 3-4 weeks ago, I installed my new head with the crower 404s in them. I finally got around to getting the car dyno tuned (after installing a B16 tranny this weekend) by Dan at godspeed. Dan used to moderate here at HT and SHO (now is more of a WRX shop though).
In the head itself I simply have the 404s, and the crower valvespring/retainer kit. The only other modification to the head was milling it by .018" in order to bump up the compression to roughly 9.5:1. My main goal was to keep the crank pressure as close to stock as possible (and not over-cam the engine).
The rest of the major modifications are
DC 4-2-1 POS Header
3" Shortram intake pipe, filter w/ velocity stack
2.25" comptech catback, with bottleneck removed
2.25" testpipe.
B&M FPR @ 43psi
Greddy E-manage
Cam gears were set at +1.5,+1.5 to compensate for the milling, so essentially it was like running at 0,0
The pictures are terrible right now, I hope to scan the graphs if I can fix the company scanner.
My final results on HP were 164.5@6503rpm
First run I ended up in the low 150's, so Dan was able to get a lot more power out of them just by playing with the ignition and fuel map. The cam timing and fuel pressure was unaltered.
For torque I ended up at 134.2 @ 5596 RPM
As you can see the torque curve is pretty choppy. Dan told me that the timing seems to be jumping around. This is probably due to at the moment I am unsure of exactly where the timing is set at stock. I am using a machined ITR crank pulley, which has a smaller diameter alternator rib and the timing marks are off. I plan to map out the marks from my stock pulley and transfer them over, and then tune again with a higher redline. As My HP curve shows it looks like there is still some room for gains as it doesn't die off at my current redline. Dan also was able to take out some timming and add more fuel and keep the same power, to keep the car safe for Track events.
As an idea of how much I gained from this, during the summer I had a baseline done on my car. The only difference was the stock cams/compression and a 2.5" CAI instead of my 3" shortram. I dynoed at 126whp.
I hope to fix my timing issues, move to a better header/collector, play with cam timming, and run a higher redline in the near future and retune to see if I can hit or break 170 with little more effort.
So I gained roughly 30-40whp just by bolting the head on and switching to a larger diameter intake pipe w/ tuning.
Now this is the part that made me really happy. Dan had also dynoed and tuned a modified ITR.
It had a full stand alone, 4-2-1 header, and an AEM intake.
My HP vs his HP
As you can see I make more power throughout the RPM band up until my redline.
Now my Torque vs his Torque
Even with a more aggressive cam, the low end power does not seem to be sacrificed. I have no problem daily driving the car, even with the short gearing.
My goals are to hit or be close to 200whp, daily drivable. I know lots of people seriously doubt this is possible, but I hope to prove them wrong. I see it as not happening because no one has bothered to take it that far, not that it can't be done.
B20 with proper compression, better exhaust and intake systems, a P&P head, a higher redline, I see it being possible. But there is only one way to find out.
Lots of people talk **** about nonvtecs, so my results brought a smile to my face. Sure honda build the vtec engines better, but that doesn't mean you can't get a nice powerboard out of a B18B. The fact that this was all done with what I see as a very shitty setup for the cam profile (tiny exhaust, crappy IM/TB, low compression, low redline), really shows to me that the potential is much higher than people think.
In the head itself I simply have the 404s, and the crower valvespring/retainer kit. The only other modification to the head was milling it by .018" in order to bump up the compression to roughly 9.5:1. My main goal was to keep the crank pressure as close to stock as possible (and not over-cam the engine).
The rest of the major modifications are
DC 4-2-1 POS Header
3" Shortram intake pipe, filter w/ velocity stack
2.25" comptech catback, with bottleneck removed
2.25" testpipe.
B&M FPR @ 43psi
Greddy E-manage
Cam gears were set at +1.5,+1.5 to compensate for the milling, so essentially it was like running at 0,0
The pictures are terrible right now, I hope to scan the graphs if I can fix the company scanner.
My final results on HP were 164.5@6503rpm
First run I ended up in the low 150's, so Dan was able to get a lot more power out of them just by playing with the ignition and fuel map. The cam timing and fuel pressure was unaltered.
For torque I ended up at 134.2 @ 5596 RPM
As you can see the torque curve is pretty choppy. Dan told me that the timing seems to be jumping around. This is probably due to at the moment I am unsure of exactly where the timing is set at stock. I am using a machined ITR crank pulley, which has a smaller diameter alternator rib and the timing marks are off. I plan to map out the marks from my stock pulley and transfer them over, and then tune again with a higher redline. As My HP curve shows it looks like there is still some room for gains as it doesn't die off at my current redline. Dan also was able to take out some timming and add more fuel and keep the same power, to keep the car safe for Track events.
As an idea of how much I gained from this, during the summer I had a baseline done on my car. The only difference was the stock cams/compression and a 2.5" CAI instead of my 3" shortram. I dynoed at 126whp.
I hope to fix my timing issues, move to a better header/collector, play with cam timming, and run a higher redline in the near future and retune to see if I can hit or break 170 with little more effort.
So I gained roughly 30-40whp just by bolting the head on and switching to a larger diameter intake pipe w/ tuning.
Now this is the part that made me really happy. Dan had also dynoed and tuned a modified ITR.
It had a full stand alone, 4-2-1 header, and an AEM intake.
My HP vs his HP
As you can see I make more power throughout the RPM band up until my redline.
Now my Torque vs his Torque
Even with a more aggressive cam, the low end power does not seem to be sacrificed. I have no problem daily driving the car, even with the short gearing.
My goals are to hit or be close to 200whp, daily drivable. I know lots of people seriously doubt this is possible, but I hope to prove them wrong. I see it as not happening because no one has bothered to take it that far, not that it can't be done.
B20 with proper compression, better exhaust and intake systems, a P&P head, a higher redline, I see it being possible. But there is only one way to find out.
Lots of people talk **** about nonvtecs, so my results brought a smile to my face. Sure honda build the vtec engines better, but that doesn't mean you can't get a nice powerboard out of a B18B. The fact that this was all done with what I see as a very shitty setup for the cam profile (tiny exhaust, crappy IM/TB, low compression, low redline), really shows to me that the potential is much higher than people think.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,643
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From: assville, MI, USA
Re: (Ej6andslow)
Well, 96 ITR would have higher compresson (JDM), not to mention that not all dynos produce the same numbers. What type of dyno did you run on?
The reason I give it weight, is it was done at the same shop, the same dyno, in a close time period. Very little reason for there to be inconsistencies.
175 - 185 seems about right from what I have seen, for mildly modified B18C5's.
The reason I give it weight, is it was done at the same shop, the same dyno, in a close time period. Very little reason for there to be inconsistencies.
175 - 185 seems about right from what I have seen, for mildly modified B18C5's.
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Joined: Dec 2003
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From: SC, USA
Re: (Ej6andslow)
not to thread jack...but just a suggestion...why dont you make or have someone make you some homemade itbs and pull considerably more power...like i said just a suggestion..always love to see an all-motor ls....keep it up 
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,643
Likes: 1
From: assville, MI, USA
Re: (10seceg)
Thanks Ej and 10sec 
I am actually in the process of making some ITB's. I am not sure when I plan to put them on in relation to my other plans (higher redline, better exhaust system, more tuning)
I am actually in the process of making some ITB's. I am not sure when I plan to put them on in relation to my other plans (higher redline, better exhaust system, more tuning)
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,072
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: (Ej6andslow)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ej6andslow »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it was on a dynojet
i was under the impression that dynapaks typically read higher, seeing as how a good friend owns one</TD></TR></TABLE>
nope they read about the same... we dyno'd a stock z06 here then went up the street to the new dynojet shop and got the EXACT same numbers
good numbers on teh LS though... the last LS with those cams we dynod only had a vafc, but the torque curve looked pretty similar to what you have.
i was under the impression that dynapaks typically read higher, seeing as how a good friend owns one</TD></TR></TABLE>
nope they read about the same... we dyno'd a stock z06 here then went up the street to the new dynojet shop and got the EXACT same numbers
good numbers on teh LS though... the last LS with those cams we dynod only had a vafc, but the torque curve looked pretty similar to what you have.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,643
Likes: 1
From: assville, MI, USA
Re: (civic2003)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civic2003 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ill bet ur going to go vtec sooner or later</TD></TR></TABLE>
nope, no thanks. I don't see any reason to have vtec on my car.
If I ever did swap on a B16 head, I would get vtec-killer cams to disable the worthless lobes.
nope, no thanks. I don't see any reason to have vtec on my car.
If I ever did swap on a B16 head, I would get vtec-killer cams to disable the worthless lobes.
"Haters Gonna Hate"
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 6,898
Likes: 3
From: GDD Bond King, AZ, USA
Re: (WAFFLES)
Nice
You have a nice BROAD powerband. You can break 190 easily and there is a lot holding it back. I just sold my 403's and will purchase the 404's. With my setup I'm hoping to break the 170's.
Good stuff
You have a nice BROAD powerband. You can break 190 easily and there is a lot holding it back. I just sold my 403's and will purchase the 404's. With my setup I'm hoping to break the 170's.
Good stuff
Thread Starter
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,643
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From: assville, MI, USA
Re: (FrostyDC4)
Yeah, thats my thoughts as well. If I can hit 165 with almost everything holding the engine back, 190's shouldn't be that far away. Especially with more displacement and much higher compression. (11.6:1 is about 25% increase in cranking pressure from stock, with 404s, from my calculations)
Idle feels like stock. I have the idle set at 900rpm instead of 750, and I honestly don't feel any difference inside the car. You can hear the lope from the exhaust, and the engine bay, but inside the car you don't hear or feel it at all. Putting in motor mount inserts had much more of a difference than these cams
Idle feels like stock. I have the idle set at 900rpm instead of 750, and I honestly don't feel any difference inside the car. You can hear the lope from the exhaust, and the engine bay, but inside the car you don't hear or feel it at all. Putting in motor mount inserts had much more of a difference than these cams
Thread Starter
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,643
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From: assville, MI, USA
Re: (FrostyDC4)
Nope no stalling problems
I would imagine stalling at idle would be a problem with either the idle speed being too low, the alternator, or the IAC/FITV.
I would imagine stalling at idle would be a problem with either the idle speed being too low, the alternator, or the IAC/FITV.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 223
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From: oklahoma city, ok, usa
Re: (StyleTEG)
awesome numbers. they make me very happy cuz i have a B18A1 being built with with 404's, oversized type-R pistons (11.5-12.0), fuel, and hondata and i set my goal at 170... good to see another LS build up without vtec!!!! good luck
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Sunshine State, USA
Re: (StyleTEG)
Glad to see that the LS is still out there. Style Teg: When are you going to get us some new 1/4 Times. And don't you think that 2-1/2 inch exhaust would help out at this point?
My setup: I will post it when it's done. I'll have it on the road in about three weeks. My LS is 404's, CTR Pistons, Headwork. Shooting for 180+ In a CRX - The VTEC boys aren't going to know what hit em. And I like it!
If I'm not happy with that setup I'll upgrade to 405A's.
My setup: I will post it when it's done. I'll have it on the road in about three weeks. My LS is 404's, CTR Pistons, Headwork. Shooting for 180+ In a CRX - The VTEC boys aren't going to know what hit em. And I like it!
If I'm not happy with that setup I'll upgrade to 405A's.
