From the May FasTrack, the following are among the recommendations to the BoD for approval:

Item 6. Based on the performance
potential of the 1987-91 Honda Prelude,
the IT Advisory Committee and the Club
Racing Board is recommending that the
car be reclassified from ITA to ITB, effective
1/1/05.

Item 7. Based on the performance
potential of the 1988-91 Honda Prelude,
the IT Advisory Committee and the Club
Racing Board is recommending that the
car be reclassified from ITS to ITA, effective
1/1/05.

Hmm...

K

 

Interesting. But aren't those motors (they were early iterations of the B-block engines I believe) universally regarded by Honda gurus as being junk?

Certainly will be interesting to see if we have something to challenge the Volvos in B.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Certainly will be interesting to see if we have something to challenge the Volvos in B.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its not really Volvo(s) as much as Volvo.
The #26 car seems to be the only one in the country thats so nasty, and alot of that is the driver, who also happens to be a very good engine builder.
Kind of like Bob Stretch's ITA 240 and Adam Malley's HP (now GP) Civic. The car gets a rep as a killer, but when you really look at it its only one car and one driver doing the killing.
Just an observation.

But Hondas in B is good news. Hopefully we'll see others soon.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting. But aren't those motors (they were early iterations of the B-block engines I believe) universally regarded by Honda gurus as being junk?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, due to long assed rods.

http://www.hondaswap.com/forum...29825

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Item 7. Based on the performance
potential of the 1988-91 Honda Prelude,
the IT Advisory Committee and the Club
Racing Board is recommending that the
car be reclassified from ITS to ITA, effective
1/1/05.

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't imagine how this car made its way into ITS in the first place.

 

While the rods are hardly great, that's not really the problem. The real problem is the cams. Craptacular duration and NO over lap. I can't remember, but it is 5 or 10 degrees between the closing of the exhaust and opening of intake. Lift is so-so.

It won't make it a monster, but cams really wake those engines up. And headers seem to do so too. If only there were some aftermarket support for it.

 

Aftermarket support - cams anyway - aren't going to help it in IT.

The title of the tread, by the way, is in reference to SCCA's long rumored conspiracy to not let Hondas into ITB. The theory was that they had A and C so B would be reserved for someone else.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The title of the tread, by the way, is in reference to SCCA's long rumored conspiracy to not let Hondas into ITB. The theory was that they had A and C so B would be reserved for someone else.

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm holding on to that theory until I see the 88-91 Civic DX and early Si cars in ITB where they belong. THEY would be strong cars for B, so I'm betting that aint gonna happen. The DX isn't even as strong as the GTI on paper, so there you have it.

 

Maybe Chris Brinson could contribute a bit to this if he is still around, he used to play with these Preludes before going to the Integra dark side.

I still think that the mid-'80s Accord was a proper ITB car before it got put in ITA to disappear. The 84-87 Civic and CRX Sis definately should be there as well but there is the fear that Honda is already too strong in too many classes so the last bastion of VW-dom and a smattering of Volvos, BMW 2002s, Suzukis, etc. known as ITB will likely not see any competitive Hondas for awhile.

Until SCCA changes the theory that there is to be no competition adjustments and no guarantees that every car in the class will be competitive, then it will be a case of a few hot cars and then a bunch of dedicated also-rans. I think that the time has now come for some equalizations based upon weight and performance record alone to be allowed. I think events would see more entries if a guy with a race prepped Snivelling Wombat 2000 could actually hope to run competitively and not just be lapping fodder for the hot cars in the class. If they just take the cars that are in the classes now and let them adjust weight by not more than 100 legally added or removed pounds per year, then the system would work and presper.

 

Skip on over to IT.com and check out the May fasttrack Lee. It looks like today is the start of a new IT world.

I'm looking at the SOHC Neon and Sentra SER/NX2000 in ITA and thinking that the CRXs and Integras are about to have some new folks to play with. There's lots and lots of both of those chassis in SS trim sitting in storage all over the country and I'm thinking plenty of them are about to get dusted off.
Think about guys like Eric Hueschel (sp?) driving ITA Neon ACRs... Greg Amy in an ITA NX2000... Yeah, its coming too.
Good stuff methinks.

Me... I have to look into this Scirocco that just got bumped down from B to C. The Sciroccos already in C are fairly bad-***, so if this one has even more poop under the hood I'd better start eatin' my wheaties.

Scott, who thinks all of these moves are good ones and likes the apparent direction of IT. Even if I DO find myself staring at the ***-end of a bunch of Scirroccos next year

 

I'm sure this will get corrected, but kinda funny when you look at it.

Item 6. Based on the performance
potential of the 1987-91 Honda Prelude,
the IT Advisory Committee and the Club
Racing Board is recommending that the
car be reclassified from ITA to ITB, effective
1/1/05.

Item 7. Based on the performance
potential of the 1988-91 Honda Prelude,
the IT Advisory Committee and the Club
Racing Board is recommending that the
car be reclassified from ITS to ITA, effective
1/1/05.

So, technically '88 - '91 goes from ITS to ITA then to ITB. Yes, I know this is not what was meant. (Jake, know you saw the humor too)

The Prelude going to ITB should really be the 2nd gen. prelude '83 - '87. And both are the Si models (non-si 2nd gen already in ITB).

I am really, really excited about this proposed move! To say the least...

Still not sure either prelude would be one of the top ITA choices, but at least now it has a shot. Can't wait for 2005 in ITB!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Until SCCA changes the theory that there is to be no competition adjustments and no guarantees that every car in the class will be competitive, then it will be a case of a few hot cars and then a bunch of dedicated also-rans. I think that the time has now come for some equalizations based upon weight and performance record alone to be allowed. I think events would see more entries if a guy with a race prepped Snivelling Wombat 2000 could actually hope to run competitively and not just be lapping fodder for the hot cars in the class. If they just take the cars that are in the classes now and let them adjust weight by not more than 100 legally added or removed pounds per year, then the system would work and presper.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What type of internal restructuring is the SCCA going to do to be able to accomplish all of this? In addition to some obviously bad classing, they have some obviously bad minimum weights as well. I feel like they would benefit greatly by having some type of formula for determining race weight... such as Curb weight as manufactured - 10%.

What if, for example, the driver of your Sniveling Wombat is horrible - one of the worst drivers ever. He's the only person in the entire country racing one of these cars and is finishing last every race. How do you judge the competitiveness of this car? I guess with your 100lb max adjustment you can't give a car too much advantage in a year, but I'm just wondering where you're getting your data from to make these decisions in the first place? - especially when a car isn't represented well or at all.

 

Drivers are always an X factor in this stuff and you can't do much about that. Another example is the GSR carrying 2690lbs in ITS. Now, all of us Honda guys pretty much universally agree that this is about 75 to 100lbs too heavy... Then Paul Dubinsky goes and runs a bunch of 2:17s at VIR last weekend and finishes 2nd... Ahead of a flock of BMWs and RX-7s.
Thus the "are you SURE its too heavy???" argument comes back from the non-honda camps.

 

A huge problem i see is that these are still busted *** 15-20 year old cars being classified and raced.

New cars are here and are faster than old cars (natural progression), and many of them are being lumped into ITS, or not classified at all. Stability is a good thing - you dont want to build new cars every other year anyways - but some sort of contingency ought to be in place for these cars to have a future with SCCA once their T2/SSB Lives are over.... is there room for new classes? Maybe, maybe not. I dont think its reasonable for a single car to remain competitive within its class for 10 years running... and at the same time, for regional competition as long as you continue to work on developing both the car and the driver it can remain competitive even if there is a better "on paper" car in the class.

I know that autocrossing is a significantly lower investment in time, prep and money, but i really do think what SCCA has done with autocrossing is a good idea by shaking the classification trees and reshuffling every few years. Seems to make room for the newer cars coming in, and while some cars do get the shaft, some older cars get favorable reclassifications as well in the end. Many of the decisions based on classing is done based on nationals result - where the cars are almost all prepped to the limit of the rule and the top drivers are all excellent.

My $.02

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1987-91 Honda Prelude ... from ITA to ITB

1988-91 Honda Prelude ... from ITS to ITA</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't get it. Are these years wrong? 87-91 would include 88-91, would it not?

 

Most SCCA classes are treated that way. But IT has been largely ignored since its creation. Finally, someone has noticed the elephant in the corner of the bedroom.

SCCA has started to be much more proactive under Steve J. and some new board members. Really good things are starting to happen.
Now they just have to balance the changes with stability. I don't want to be changing classes or adding weight to my car every 2 years.

And the age thing tends to naturally progress on its own. Racing is tough on a car, and its hard to keep the same car racing for 10 years. Some do, but its pretty rare.
You see far fewer ITS 240zs out there now than you did 5 or 6 years ago. People tend to think its because its no longer "The Car" but this really isn't the case. Its attrition. Don't tell John Williams he can't beat $40K BMWs in his 30 year old Datsun because he does it all the damned time.
Same goes for the good old RX3, which can still kick some *** in ITA if you can find one thats solid enough to stay together.

SCCA is a little behind schedule when it comes to IT, but they're getting there.
Remember that with SCCA its not a matter of Cobetto saying "I like that, lets do it." Everything is member driven and committee executed. While this can be a good thing, it can also be like swimming in Crisco sometimes.
You have to take the good with the bad and vesa visy.

 

Oh, and I really wish I'd bought an old SSC Neon like 2 days ago. Those things, with 8 point welded cages, race seats, konis, buttloads of wheels, and tons of spares, have been going for stupidly low prices (as little as $2500) for the past year or so.
Talk about the start of a cheap, fast, competitive ITA car... Yikes.

But I'm guessing all those prices just went up (or "for sale" signs removed) and a bunch of old SS Neons just got pulled in from back yards and barns and into the garages of smiling owners. At 132hp and 2450lbs, they just got themselves a sweet, cheap ITA car.

Scott, who has seen on Neon boards that the SOHC motor can make 150whp in IT trim. Mopar actually sells one already built and crated.

 

About adding in new cars...yes, there should be a place for them to race. But you also have to look at the intention of IT racing. A place to race at a "moderate" price. If a newer car has specs to fit into a class, then great! The year of the car shouldn't be the factor determining what class it should be put into. Maybe there is room for one more class though...

 

I remember watching Eric Hueschle (sp?) fighting tooth and nail foi the lead several years ago in an ITS Neon running 1-2 seconds under the ITA track record until the common Neon hub failure made him a non-finisher. No doubt Eric is an excellent driver and he has the opportunity to prepare the car to or in excess of the rules. He stopped running the car regulalry soon after that as he probably tired of such an uphill battle with the car. My expectation is that the car will be at the very top of the ITA list in good trim with a very good driver, just like the Accord was in ITB with a well built car and good driver (Randy Pobst at the ARRC good enough for you?).

With the ability to balance somewhat with a modicum of weight adjustments, I think this is a positive step forward. Classify a new car at curb weight the first year or two then be prepared to adjust it somewhat based on race performance. If a small number of not very good drivers are the only people who run one model car (the Snivelling Wombat), then weight adjustments will be still limited until good driver's get in a start running better to the point that the weight needs to adjust the other way. The only problem I see with equalization is that it is commonly know that not all driver's bring legal cars and that some folks feel they need to cheat to counter some of the car's inherent lack of comptitiveness (I did it in the end with the ITA Corvair- not proud but I felt I had to just to run mid-pack). When real competitiveness is going to be a better chance, IT as a culture needs to be prepared to pass a higher lever of legality and responsibility.

Better to use weight alone as the equalizer (not allowing brakes and cams for certain cars as Pandora's Box will be wide open). I have not read the IT site yet about the new rule changes but I think it is a step forward even though some issues are going to raise. I started racing IT in 1988 and have seen through the years that the current system adds to the lack on competitive potential and some guys without hot model cars have to be happy playing mid-pack, build a whole new car, or just quit racing althogether. No forward steps are without some risk or headache but it does have the chance to pull a lot of cars that were languishing in garages back on track, filling fields, making more competition through the fields and potentiall cutting the per car costs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't get it. Are these years wrong? 87-91 would include 88-91, would it not?</TD></TR></TABLE>

87-91 S model to ITB
88-91 SI model to ITA

 

No, no, no. Guess no one read my previous post in this thread about this issue.

Here it goes again:
1987 Honda Prelude Si to ITB
1988 - 1991 Honda Prelude Si to ITA

The full 2nd gen. prelude years may not be included (not sure why) but I did get confirmation of this from SCCA head quarters technical dept. The minutes will be updated soon.

Got it?

I definately know - have an '87 Prelude si and submitted the orig. classification request ~ 2 years ago and the most recent reclassification request. Updated my profile.


Modified by granracing at 9:15 PM 3/25/2004

 

FYI, Davey-boy is going to be a Honda force to be reckoned with for ITB in the Northeast! Will there be a certain yellow 'lude at the ARRC race in '05?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1987 Honda Prelude Si to ITB
1988 - 1991 Honda Prelude Si to ITA
</TD></TR></TABLE>

What I would like to know is how is the '86-
87 Civic Si still classed in ITA?

 

Remember everyone - SCCA club racing doesn't sit down and do a comprehensive plan for what models and years it's going to list in IT, nor does the Comp Board do a bunch of research on specs.

It simply says "yes" or "no" to specific requests from members and essentially trusts that the techical specs they provide are accurate. They are clearly NOT always and, if someone requests that the 1995 Whatsis be listed, the 1994 and 1996 models are never even considered - even if they are identical in specification.

K

 

Exactomundo! They moved the 'lude 'cuz someone asked.