What wheels and brakes are the H1 guys running?

 

I know for a FACT that all S2000s run stock brakes...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtrac1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What wheels and brakes are the H1 guys running?</TD></TR></TABLE>

hmmm. lets see:

wheels =

1 set rota 15 x 6.5 38 offset
1 set team dynamics 15 x 7 35 offset
1 set 2000 SI OEM 15 x 6 43 offset
1 set 98 GSR OEM 15 x 6 43 offset
1 set 95 GSR OEM 15 x 6 43 offset

using various tires

front brakes = 93 Accord wagon front calipers/93 Prelude VTEC rotors using various pads.

rear brakes = stock drums using stock shoes.

that about covers it!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know for a FACT that all S2000s run stock brakes...</TD></TR></TABLE>

how stock tho? aftermarket rotors allowed?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how stock tho? aftermarket rotors allowed? </TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.nasaproracing.com/r...c.pdf

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

http://www.nasaproracing.com/r...c.pdf</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've already read it:

"g) Brake rotors must be the same type, material, and dimensions as OEM. Rotors from alternate companies may be used. Rotors may be cyrogenically treated."

Same type? I was unaware of the varies types of rotors out there, same material? I was unaware that differing compositions of carbon allloy steel could be detected in rotors. Dimensions is a no-brainer but slotted/drilled or 2 piece rotors? I might be nitty picky here but if feels better to know that you wont get DQ'd b/c of having an extra hole drilled into your rotor in a drilled rotor application.

 

Same type = blanks (no drilled, slotted, chamferred, swiss cheesed, two piece).

Same material = no stainless steel, carbon, ceramic, unobtanium, aluminum hat, etc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I've already read it:

"g) Brake rotors must be the same type, material, and dimensions as OEM. Rotors from alternate companies may be used. Rotors may be cyrogenically treated."

Same type? I was unaware of the varies types of rotors out there, same material? I was unaware that differing compositions of carbon allloy steel could be detected in rotors. Dimensions is a no-brainer but slotted/drilled or 2 piece rotors? I might be nitty picky here but if feels better to know that you wont get DQ'd b/c of having an extra hole drilled into your rotor in a drilled rotor application. </TD></TR></TABLE>

2 piece rotor would not be of the same type.

Rotors can also be made of Ti, Carbon, Ceramics, etc...none of which would be legal for an s2000.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

2 piece rotor would not be of the same type.

Rotors can also be made of Ti, Carbon, Ceramics, etc...none of which would be legal for an s2000.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Titanium rotor eh? I guess I hear something new all the time besides chamferred & swiss cheesed rotors. You guys do a realise there is a noticable different b/w the grade of steel they use on brake rotors and can vary from low carbon to high carbon quality steels? Again, I don't mean to nit pick but don't you guys think that's a little setback to run the stock brake system on the s2000 vs 6 piston 13" rotor'd 2200lb car? I mean we're talking at most a different of 400lbs from a b-series hybrid to an s2k with a bbk.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... don't you guys think that's a little setback to run the stock brake system on the s2000 vs 6 piston 13" rotor'd 2200lb car?</TD></TR></TABLE>

What we think is irrelevant since we do not make the rules. If you take issue with a rule, you need to contact NASA directly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You guys do a realise there is a noticable different b/w the grade of steel they use on brake rotors and can vary from low carbon to high carbon quality steels? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes but this is a quality/longevity concern... not a performance/cost concern (yes a good rotor costs more but nowhere near the cost of a big *** brake setup)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">don't you guys think that's a little setback to run the stock brake system on the s2000 vs 6 piston 13" rotor'd 2200lb car? I mean we're talking at most a different of 400lbs from a b-series hybrid to an s2k with a bbk. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Competition/On-Track results will decide that i think.

S2K has other advantages anyways, and does it really need bigger brakes at stock-ish power levels?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What we think is irrelevant since we do not make the rules. If you take issue with a rule, you need to contact NASA directly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you run in a series, the drivers/crew/race teams opinions are relevant. To say otherwise is missing the point that the series is made up of drivers/crew and race teams. To keep competition healthy, all things should be equally weighed? I'll tell you guys I know one other guy that wont run HC b/c of the brake issue, silly isn't it? First and foremost, I need to get the car out there and compare lap times.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yes but this is a quality/longevity concern... not a performance/cost concern (yes a good rotor costs more but nowhere near the cost of a big *** brake setup)

Competition/On-Track results will decide that i think.

S2K has other advantages anyways, and does it really need bigger brakes at stock-ish power levels?</TD></TR></TABLE>

If performance/cost was really in concern, then you would see K-series built motors in the series either. While an attempt to keep things grassroots is being maintained there is still top dollar being invested into the cars. So, if you keep the s2k running stock "type" rotors, a fresh set of rotors will be needed every weeked. On a well designed/engineerd BBK, rotors will need to be replaced more like every 3rd or 4th weekend b/c you can get away with a thicker rotor and run thicker pads, all of which reduce the heat build up and dissipate heat better, things last longer and brake fluid doesn't get boiled over.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I need to get the car out there and compare lap times.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Until you, or other S2000s are competing in the HC on a regular basis, there is no reason for NASA to change the rules. If the S2000 is not competitive, the rules can and will (good thing about NASA HC) be changed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rickpeak &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Until you, or other S2000s are competing in the HC on a regular basis, there is no reason for NASA to change the rules. If the S2000 is not competitive, the rules can and will (good thing about NASA HC) be changed.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you run in a series, the drivers/crew/race teams opinions are relevant.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Opinions are relevant. Results are much, much more relevant.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll tell you guys I know one other guy that wont run HC b/c of the brake issue, silly isn't it? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I have a hard time believing thats the only issue, and sounds like a convenient excuse for sacking out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If performance/cost was really in concern, then you would see K-series built motors in the series either. While an attempt to keep things grassroots is being maintained there is still top dollar being invested into the cars. So, if you keep the s2k running stock "type" rotors, a fresh set of rotors will be needed every weeked. On a well designed/engineerd BBK, rotors will need to be replaced more like every 3rd or 4th weekend b/c you can get away with a thicker rotor and run thicker pads, all of which reduce the heat build up and dissipate heat better, things last longer and brake fluid doesn't get boiled over. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It depends on how hard you drive the car. Just because you spent 5K, 8K, or 10K on your brake system doesn't mean it wears out less quickly.

Case in point. My Acura Grand Am Cup car (granted it weighs only 2500 lbs) has stock rotors that have lasted me three weekends of testing.

My F355 Challenge car which has 14 inch cross-drilled two piece floating discs and are the same disks used on the LeMans winning Ferrari 333 SP last me two days at most of hard driving/racing.

Cost for a Acura blank rotor is between $21-$49. Cost for a Brembo Challenge race rotors is $357 dealer cost ($400-$600 for customers). What's the difference. Well the Challenge rotor doesn't fade at all, even after 1 + hour of racing at Watkins Glen where we hit 160 on the back straight. You can just pound the **** out if them all day or weekend long.

The Acura rotor will start to fade but I have never gone past 30 minutes and most HC races aren't much longer.

I have a few friends who use both Brembo's and Alcon's in Speed World Challenge and their rotors don't last more than one weekend of racing, and this applies to the low budget teams as well. They replace them after every race because most are warped or cracked.

HC is trying to keep the cost down so it's affordable racing (ok..no racing is really affordable but compare it to SWC). If you really want to build a decent S2000 with all the good stuff then go to Grand Am Cup or Speed World Challenge.

You can build a good HC car for 10-15K, maybe 20K tops for the west coast guys. Those figures won't even pay for a decent engine in SWC. Look at Realtime and Turner. They spend upwards of $125,000-$150,000 on their cars. That's not what HC is all about.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod

 

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you keep the s2k running stock "type" rotors, a fresh set of rotors will be needed every weeked.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I find that hard to believe. Unless the S2K has abnormally undersized rotors (relative to other Hondas), they should hold up fine. I don't think any of the Prelude drivers are replacing them that often - and they have a heavier car to slow down.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you run in a series, the drivers/crew/race teams opinions are relevant.</TD></TR></TABLE>

AFAIK, nobody here is campaigning an S2K yet. Without on-track results, there is nothing performance related to argue.

In addition, the argument "my rotors wear too fast" isn't relevant in a production based race series. If you don't like replacing parts, choose a platform with better durability. As soon as you make concession of that nature, you'll get requests like, "My Honda engine is too expensive to rebuild, you should let me run a small block Chevy."

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Opinions are relevant. Results are much, much more relevant.

I have a hard time believing thats the only issue, and sounds like a convenient excuse for sacking out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

to results but if you upgraded your brake kit and went through a lot of R&D to develop a well engineered kit, you'ld be reluctant to ditch the kit and run stock.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It depends on how hard you drive the car. Just because you spent 5K, 8K, or 10K on your brake system doesn't mean it wears out less quickly.

Case in point. My Acura Grand Am Cup car (granted it weighs only 2500 lbs) has stock rotors that have lasted me three weekends of testing.

My F355 Challenge car which has 14 inch cross-drilled two piece floating discs and are the same disks used on the LeMans winning Ferrari 333 SP last me two days at most of hard driving/racing.

Cost for a Acura blank rotor is between $21-$49. Cost for a Brembo Challenge race rotors is $357 dealer cost ($400-$600 for customers). What's the difference. Well the Challenge rotor doesn't fade at all, even after 1 + hour of racing at Watkins Glen where we hit 160 on the back straight. You can just pound the **** out if them all day or weekend long.

The Acura rotor will start to fade but I have never gone past 30 minutes and most HC races aren't much longer.

I have a few friends who use both Brembo's and Alcon's in Speed World Challenge and their rotors don't last more than one weekend of racing, and this applies to the low budget teams as well. They replace them after every race because most are warped or cracked.

HC is trying to keep the cost down so it's affordable racing (ok..no racing is really affordable but compare it to SWC). If you really want to build a decent S2000 with all the good stuff then go to Grand Am Cup or Speed World Challenge.

You can build a good HC car for 10-15K, maybe 20K tops for the west coast guys. Those figures won't even pay for a decent engine in SWC. Look at Realtime and Turner. They spend upwards of $125,000-$150,000 on their cars. That's not what HC is all about.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Jon, you make good points but I'll concenrate on your statement that HC is keeping costs down, if you look at a few of the hybrids running, I will say that they are far from low budget, remember I said a few, not the majority. And to keep things in perspective, I'm not talking about $10K brake kit. The wilwood kit is not even as expensive as the brembo kit for the s2000 and the replacement friction surfaces for a 2 piece rotor setup is similarly priced to OEM replacement blanks. Again, we're not talking about a $5k brake kit.

Your statement to run the s2000 in WC or Grand Am is also a no brainer. The s2000 does't fit there, a blower will be needed for GT and it's not classed in touring.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I find that hard to believe. Unless the S2K has abnormally undersized rotors (relative to other Hondas), they should hold up fine. I don't think any of the Prelude drivers are replacing them that often - and they have a heavier car to slow down.

AFAIK, nobody here is campaigning an S2K yet. Without on-track results, there is nothing performance related to argue.

In addition, the argument "my rotors wear too fast" isn't relevant in a production based race series. If you don't like replacing parts, choose a platform with better durability. As soon as you make concession of that nature, you'll get requests like, "My Honda engine is too expensive to rebuild, you should let me run a small block Chevy."</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, one needs to campaign one but what do you tell those that have the BBK already? take them off and run stock and if you're at a disadvantage, put the kit back on?

It's not hard to damage rotors period, you use a high enough Mu pad compound and they are done, ex hawk blues, and it's not uncommon to see a set of rotors on the s2000 used up at tracks like t-hill for a weekend. While we're on the subject of a production based race series, since when did those hatch's come with motorswaps?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not talking about $10K brake kit. The wilwood kit is not even as expensive as the brembo kit for the s2000 and the replacement friction surfaces for a 2 piece rotor setup is similarly priced to OEM replacement blanks. Again, we're not talking about a $5k brake kit. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Its still and added cost. You have to draw the line somewhere and stick to it. Rules creep would be a bitch.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, one needs to campaign one but what do you tell those that have the BBK already? take them off and run stock and if you're at a disadvantage, put the kit back on? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont understand how its a disadvantage though. The Integra GSR's have basically civic-sized rotors - should they be allowed to upgrade too?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">While we're on the subject of a production based race series, since when did those hatch's come with motorswaps? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Production based. Hybrid is a huge draw.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, one needs to campaign one but what do you tell those that have the BBK already? take them off and run stock and if you're at a disadvantage, put the kit back on? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, you HAVE to take it off to run in HC.
NO, don't plan on putting it back on anytime soon.

It's not a choice, poll, vote, want, etc, it is a rule and it is a must. A lot of thought went into rules, and if they incovienience some ppl, tough chit, that's how it goes.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not hard to damage rotors period, you use a high enough Mu pad compound and they are done, ex hawk blues, and it's not uncommon to see a set of rotors on the s2000 used up at tracks like t-hill for a weekend. While we're on the subject of a production based race series, since when did those hatch's come with motorswaps? </TD></TR></TABLE>

How are you going through rotors again? If the pad is chewing through the rotor you're not getting enough heat into the pad...

Also, we're not the rulemakers, if you have a valid concern contact the ones that make the decisions.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

How are you going through rotors again? If the pad is chewing through the rotor you're not getting enough heat into the pad...</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are so many variables here dependent on the track and compound used that you can't aswner it until you experiece it. Yes, it's easy to crack a rotor, rapid cooling does that but whoever trys to say you can actually warp a rotor (get it look egg-shaped, not circular) is confused. What mose of you think is rotor warpage is uneven brake pad material build up on the rotor surface, unless you can see the rotor cracked like a melon, hence it'll be warped too.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, we're not the rulemakers, if you have a valid concern contact the ones that make the decisions. </TD></TR></TABLE>

already contacted. So basically not even asking you guys what you thought would mean I didn't care what you thought...hence posting here and getting some opinions. Your field of competitors shouldn't be just that, you drive along these guys and what's more fun than having a competitive series?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Its still and added cost. You have to draw the line somewhere and stick to it. Rules creep would be a bitch.

I dont understand how its a disadvantage though. The Integra GSR's have basically civic-sized rotors - should they be allowed to upgrade too?

Production based. Hybrid is a huge draw.</TD></TR></TABLE>

disadvantage is defined by being outbraked into a turn when all variables set equal in terms of driver skill, when one car can brake later and deeper into a turn, that is a disadvantage for the guy that has to brake earlier. Since we're talking about the H1 class and how this is production based and all, then aftermarket 6pot brakes on the hybrids does make sense.