I'm trying to get a little more stiffness in the back of my car without going up on the spring rates. I remembered seeing this thread awhile ago.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=766136

Would changing the location from mounting to the shock bolt to this swaybar bolt opening change the stiffness by increasing or decreasing. I forgot all the formulas and angles so I need some help. I've also got another possible mounting idea for the same place but wanted to see if it will even help before I build something to try it.

 

no, onlythe three holes on the sway bar itself adjust stiffness. the different holes on the bracket are for fitment.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no, onlythe three holes on the sway bar itself adjust stiffness. the different holes on the bracket are for fitment.</TD></TR></TABLE>

but you are changing the mounting point on the control arm to further in which should alter the wheel rate of the suspension.

 

Is it further in? It looks like it would just be lower to me. Might affect preload?

 

normally it attaches to the bolt that goes thru the bottom of the shock. Pictured in that thread it goes thru the sway bar hole which should be at least a good 2-3" I'd say toward the inner part of the control arm. If I was near the car I'd go look and measure.

 

for example here are the 2 holes that i'm talking about. normally on the 89-91 you mount them to the bolt hole on the left. I'm wanting to mount it to the one on the right to try and get more effective stiffness from the bar.

 

I think it goes something like this assuming both sway bars are the same... Attaching the sway bar closer to the tire increases the effectiveness of the sway bar. Attaching the sway bar closer to the inner controll arm mounting point decreases the effect of the sway bar.

Or think of it as the farther the point the bar attaches to moves, the more the sway bar will have to twist, thus the more effect the swaybar will be.

So by doing what you are suggesting and moving the mounting point away from the tire, it should make the sway bar less effective.

But no guarentees that I'm right.

 

Ryan, the other guys here are right - moving the swaybar attachment point inboard on the lower control arm reduces the amount of swaybar deflection for a given amount of suspension travel, thus reducing the effectiveness of the bar.

Chris Shenefield has his bar mounted that way, and did it on purpose recognizing the effect it would have.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by drkarrow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it goes something like this assuming both sway bars are the same... Attaching the sway bar closer to the tire increases the effectiveness of the sway bar. Attaching the sway bar closer to the inner controll arm mounting point decreases the effect of the sway bar.

Or think of it as the farther the point the bar attaches to moves, the more the sway bar will have to twist, thus the more effect the swaybar will be.

So by doing what you are suggesting and moving the mounting point away from the tire, it should make the sway bar less effective.

But no guarentees that I'm right.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats exactly what I was looking for. Guess I'm leaving it the way it is. Maybe I'll just have to look into getting a custom bar made but use all the ST hardware.

 

sorry misunderstood what you were talking about. if you move the mounting point inboard by flipping the mount around, then it will decrease the wheel travel and thus spring tension.

i thought you were asking about the two verticle holes in the bracket, choosing either doesnt effect anything if they are the same on both sides. swaybars work according to RELATIVE vertical displacement between the two control arms, if they are both lowered, then theres no relative change.

 

im with ya ryan, i want a 26 for my car. i think i could get it made, but i wonder if more people would want a 26mm bar besides......me.
-spenc

 

If you guys are looking a bigger rear sway bar then the 22mm ST bar. You might want to check out http://www.sanerperffab.com they have a 25mm rear bar for our cars. And he going to be making hollow bars soon also, also it would a nice 20-25lbs weight savings . I'm waiting for the hollow bars.

 

Ok, I see what you meant. It was hard to tell which picture you wanted me to look at.

 

Keep in mind about that weight savings bit...

upping the spring rate and keeping the smaller swaybar, or even possibly putting a smaller bar on there might save you another 20 lbs...

same idea upfront, but im pretty sure you're already using the oem bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Keep in mind about that weight savings bit...

upping the spring rate and keeping the smaller swaybar, or even possibly putting a smaller bar on there might save you another 20 lbs...

same idea upfront, but im pretty sure you're already using the oem bar.</TD></TR></TABLE>

my rear shocks are about maxed out though. I can't go too high on rates with kyb's or I would do that. The ST bar is very heavy.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

my rear shocks are about maxed out though. I can't go too high on rates with kyb's or I would do that. The ST bar is very heavy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ryan if your intent is to "loosen" the car up, may be take the easy road and increase your rear pressures a little. You never really said why you wanted to increase the effectiveness of the rear bar, so I am assuming here, sorry if I am out of bounds.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DerangedEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ryan if your intent is to "loosen" the car up, may be take the easy road and increase your rear pressures a little. You never really said why you wanted to increase the effectiveness of the rear bar, so I am assuming here, sorry if I am out of bounds. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I like to drop rear pressures instead of add. I was using 35/25 already on concrete to get rotation.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by goforbroke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you guys are looking a bigger rear sway bar then the 22mm ST bar. You might want to check out http://www.sanerperffab.com they have a 25mm rear bar for our cars..</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I like to drop rear pressures instead of add. I was using 35/25 already on concrete to get rotation. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah I guess it depends upon how you like your slip angles, I always thought lowering pressures made the rear feel mushy (may be what you are feeling?) so I usually opted for the higher rates to at least get a stable feeling that would skate over the surface instead of mush their way along. Dunno may be I am not helping here...

 

I think it has to do a lot with personal preference. I definately dont get any mushy feeling with 450 lb springs back there. The lower pressures make oversteer more controlable to me. Maybe eventually it'll be loose enough to have a FWD formula drift car

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe eventually it'll be loose enough to have a FWD formula drift car </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah I know what you mean I have 650s in the rear...gotta love it when it rains

 

Nate could probably go more indepth here...

but where do you want your oversteer? Steady state or transitional?

Daddio had a few posts on the Neon board about how tire pressures would effect each, vs how shocks would change...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nate could probably go more indepth here...

but where do you want your oversteer? Steady state or transitional?

Daddio had a few posts on the Neon board about how tire pressures would effect each, vs how shocks would change...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I read that along time ago and used Daddio's method for tire pressures. I can't specifically recall his notes on transitional vs. steady state set-up but I run 550/650 rate springs 24mm sway f and 24-26 mm adjustbaler rear bar with almost equal tires pressures and transitionally its a little twitchy, steady state all it takes is a quick lift and it rotates quickly.

 

If you want to make that bar stiffer, I would say(by looking at the pics) move the endlink from the front of the control arm to the back then drill new holes on the lever arm. Its says your car is an 89 so I assume you still are using the 89 style control arms as opposed the the wide 88 style. So there should be enough lever arm for you to play with. Hope that makes sense

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nate could probably go more indepth here...

but where do you want your oversteer? Steady state or transitional?

Daddio had a few posts on the Neon board about how tire pressures would effect each, vs how shocks would change...</TD></TR></TABLE>

referencing the same stuff from daddio, low(er) rear tire pressures will make the car looser in transitions and corner entry. higher rear shock rebound will also make the car looser in transitions and corner entry. assuming you already have the car setup to take all the weight off the inside rear, a larger rear swaybar will also make the car looser in transitions and at corner entry, as would stiffer rear springs.

high(er) rear tire pressures will make the car more stable in transitions and corner entry, but still improve mid-corner rotation like the low pressures would. obviously a lower rear shock rebound setting will make the car more stable at entry and in transitions, as would a larger front bar/smaller rear bar or stiffer front springs/softer rear springs.

i don't know where you guys are having trouble with rotation, but i'm not having any problems with it at corner entry and in transitions. fwiw, i learned all the stuff on entry stability last year at nats when my car was an evil loose monster at entry and a pig at mid-corner. i talked to daddio, described my setup, and his response was a big laugh, then "no wonder. with it setup like that it'll spin like a top". his suggestions where to turn up the front shocks (originally set at full soft), turn down the rear shocks (orginally set at full hard), increase the rear tire pressure(already at 55psi, ended up a bit north of 70psi), and dial back some of the rear toe-out (1/2" total toe out).

nate