Type R to move to DSP?
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Type R to move to DSP?
http://www.scca.org/news/tech/...k.pdf
Up for member comment is the movement of the Type R from CSP to DSP, it will, however, be listed on it's own line.
Scott
Up for member comment is the movement of the Type R from CSP to DSP, it will, however, be listed on it's own line.
Scott
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Re: Type R to move to DSP? (celica73)
Woohoo! Add +1 to the YES column!
The Type R is horribly uncompetitive in CSP and more appropriate in DSP given the 3-series and IS300 (stock class competitors) are already there. I don't believe the ITR will be any faster than those cars since David Fauth and Derek Butts effectively raised the bar this past year. It seems like a very logical fit for the class IMO
The only people who will likely not support this will be the two or three people who have GS-R's running DSP now. That's moot, however, as they'll be uncompetitive as soon as all Integra's (sans R) are put on one line. Then an RS with a GSR powertrain will become the hot non-Type R Integra in the class.
The Type R is horribly uncompetitive in CSP and more appropriate in DSP given the 3-series and IS300 (stock class competitors) are already there. I don't believe the ITR will be any faster than those cars since David Fauth and Derek Butts effectively raised the bar this past year. It seems like a very logical fit for the class IMO
The only people who will likely not support this will be the two or three people who have GS-R's running DSP now. That's moot, however, as they'll be uncompetitive as soon as all Integra's (sans R) are put on one line. Then an RS with a GSR powertrain will become the hot non-Type R Integra in the class.
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Re: Type R to move to DSP? (SiLooksStock)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiLooksStock »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or maybe he's already started walking around in a drunken stupor, asking everyone to comment to the solo board about it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Dang it--I wanted to see my name next to that suggestion so people at the events would know who to buy the beer for.
I don't think we'll see any negative feedback from this though (hoping). Why would people be anymore afraid of a Type R than they would be a RS/GSR swap? The RS/GSR swap will still be the lighter car.
And yes, I sent in the request to have the R on its own line. That way it could still be moved out if it would dominate (won't happen) and not mess with the rest of the Integra lineup. There are other reasons that I went over, but I think that's the best selling point.
Dang it--I wanted to see my name next to that suggestion so people at the events would know who to buy the beer for.
I don't think we'll see any negative feedback from this though (hoping). Why would people be anymore afraid of a Type R than they would be a RS/GSR swap? The RS/GSR swap will still be the lighter car.
And yes, I sent in the request to have the R on its own line. That way it could still be moved out if it would dominate (won't happen) and not mess with the rest of the Integra lineup. There are other reasons that I went over, but I think that's the best selling point.
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From: Shiny side up dammit, MO
why does everyone have such a stiffy over the mythical GSR motored RS as the hot DSP integra? I'll take my B18B1 over a C1 any day of the week.
Matt Watkins agrees with me too, maybe i'll let him explain the reasoning.
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From: OH
Re: (carl_aka_carlos)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
why does everyone have such a stiffy over the mythical GSR motored RS as the hot DSP integra? I'll take my B18B1 over a C1 any day of the week.
Matt Watkins agrees with me too, maybe i'll let him explain the reasoning.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gear ratio advantage of the C1, plus the torque is just as good if you do the proper mods and tuning. Not to mention the superior power over 6K RPMs. And if the GSR boys stick with 13" tires, they will see that kind of RPM frequently.
I don't really see the advantage of the non-vtec motor once you can stuff the C1 into the RS chassis.
why does everyone have such a stiffy over the mythical GSR motored RS as the hot DSP integra? I'll take my B18B1 over a C1 any day of the week.
Matt Watkins agrees with me too, maybe i'll let him explain the reasoning.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gear ratio advantage of the C1, plus the torque is just as good if you do the proper mods and tuning. Not to mention the superior power over 6K RPMs. And if the GSR boys stick with 13" tires, they will see that kind of RPM frequently.
I don't really see the advantage of the non-vtec motor once you can stuff the C1 into the RS chassis.
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From: Shiny side up dammit, MO
Re: (Todd00)
who said anything about 13's?
when I finally take the DSP plunge it will most certainly not be with those tiny 13x8.5s. I'm thinking more along the lines of a 14x8.5. 225/50/14 is slightly wider than a 225/45/15 and only marginally shorter.
when I finally take the DSP plunge it will most certainly not be with those tiny 13x8.5s. I'm thinking more along the lines of a 14x8.5. 225/50/14 is slightly wider than a 225/45/15 and only marginally shorter.
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Re: (carl_aka_carlos)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who said anything about 13's?
when I finally take the DSP plunge it will most certainly not be with those tiny 13x8.5s. I'm thinking more along the lines of a 14x8.5. 225/50/14 is slightly wider than a 225/45/15 and only marginally shorter. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Out of curiosity, how often does the prototypical (Neary, Watkins, etc.) DSP Integra shift to 3rd? The thing I'm really waiting for is to see someone finally put 245s on an Integra and, despite the slower acceleration, KILL everyone in the corners and walk away.
Ok, ok, I know that wouldn't necessarily happen, but it would be REALLY interesting to see someone try it. And for those that claim that the car is too light to need that much tire, I point you to Guy Ankeny winning CSP a few years ago in a Miata (much lighter than an Integra, of course) on 245-16" tires. Hmmm...
when I finally take the DSP plunge it will most certainly not be with those tiny 13x8.5s. I'm thinking more along the lines of a 14x8.5. 225/50/14 is slightly wider than a 225/45/15 and only marginally shorter. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Out of curiosity, how often does the prototypical (Neary, Watkins, etc.) DSP Integra shift to 3rd? The thing I'm really waiting for is to see someone finally put 245s on an Integra and, despite the slower acceleration, KILL everyone in the corners and walk away.
Ok, ok, I know that wouldn't necessarily happen, but it would be REALLY interesting to see someone try it. And for those that claim that the car is too light to need that much tire, I point you to Guy Ankeny winning CSP a few years ago in a Miata (much lighter than an Integra, of course) on 245-16" tires. Hmmm...
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Re: (DFauth)
The idea of 245/16 has crossed my mind but I haven't tried it because of:
1. The cost of getting some 16s w/tires
2. Even if I could find some 245/16 to borrow I would have to cut fenders for something I'm not sure would work.
3. With 13's on the GSR it has never been an issue of running out of 2nd gear unless in a long straight where everyone is using 3rd.
However, 245/16 would be interesting on a ITR.
I also point to Don Lew's DSP Supra who uses 245/16 instead of the stock 14. However his car has the torque to turn those big wheels.
1. The cost of getting some 16s w/tires
2. Even if I could find some 245/16 to borrow I would have to cut fenders for something I'm not sure would work.
3. With 13's on the GSR it has never been an issue of running out of 2nd gear unless in a long straight where everyone is using 3rd.
However, 245/16 would be interesting on a ITR.
I also point to Don Lew's DSP Supra who uses 245/16 instead of the stock 14. However his car has the torque to turn those big wheels.
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Re: (Todd00)
I'm going to wait until the sizes and performance shake out on the new hoosiers and kumhos before I decide what size to go with.
I can say that on a 205/50-15 ECSTA V700 at the 03 Peru Tour (pretty big fast course) I was on the limiter once per run, and that tire is a little bit taller than the 225/50-14 Hoosier. With as much extra exit speed as I'll have, suspension working better and better tire, I think it might be worth it to stick with a little bit taller tire (22.7") rather than go with the 225/45 or 225/50 13's (20.7" or 21.8").
I think the 14" would be a good compromise between gearing, inertia, fitment and contact patch.
I'll be at Nats in DSP on 205/50-15 R3S03's lol knife to a gunfight, so I'll have more data after that to help me decide.
Thoughts?
Modified by SiLooksStock at 7:35 PM 2/26/2004
I can say that on a 205/50-15 ECSTA V700 at the 03 Peru Tour (pretty big fast course) I was on the limiter once per run, and that tire is a little bit taller than the 225/50-14 Hoosier. With as much extra exit speed as I'll have, suspension working better and better tire, I think it might be worth it to stick with a little bit taller tire (22.7") rather than go with the 225/45 or 225/50 13's (20.7" or 21.8").
I think the 14" would be a good compromise between gearing, inertia, fitment and contact patch.
I'll be at Nats in DSP on 205/50-15 R3S03's lol knife to a gunfight, so I'll have more data after that to help me decide.
Thoughts?
Modified by SiLooksStock at 7:35 PM 2/26/2004
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From: Doylestown, PA
Re: (DFauth)
Hi David... you're always jumping in with the 245s... Personally I think it would be feasable and would work very well. I was just never at a point where cutting the fenders was an option.
Now? RS chassis + GS-R motor + Cut fenders + 245s = Trophies... lots of them
2300lbs car (up to that weight because of the big wheels and tires) 180hp/140lbs wide tires... damn that would be fast. maybe not a prosolo car. but a good car.
We'll see what happens in '05 if I havn't put a cage in my GS-R by then.
Modified by Watkinsm3 at 3:03 PM 2/26/2004
Personally I think it would be feasable and would work very well. I was just never at a point where cutting the fenders was an option.Now? RS chassis + GS-R motor + Cut fenders + 245s = Trophies... lots of them
2300lbs car (up to that weight because of the big wheels and tires) 180hp/140lbs wide tires... damn that would be fast. maybe not a prosolo car. but a good car.
We'll see what happens in '05 if I havn't put a cage in my GS-R by then.
Modified by Watkinsm3 at 3:03 PM 2/26/2004
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Re: (carl_aka_carlos)
I've been telling them for 2 years to at least go to a 14" tire with a 15" being best. That tiny 13 just can't handle the weight, as witnessed by the camber and heat problems.
I know it would be great to stuff a 245 under an Integra, but with the new s04 Hoosier 225 being sooo large, I don't know if you'd need it or not.
I know it would be great to stuff a 245 under an Integra, but with the new s04 Hoosier 225 being sooo large, I don't know if you'd need it or not.
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Re: (Todd00)
Is the S04 really bigger than the S03? The specs are the same 14" vs. 14" but we all know how often specs tell the whole story .
Edit: Nevermind, just saw the specs on the 225/45-15 A3S04, .2" more tread width, .4" more section width than the A3S03 in the same size.
Edit: Nevermind, just saw the specs on the 225/45-15 A3S04, .2" more tread width, .4" more section width than the A3S03 in the same size.
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Re: (Todd00)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been telling them for 2 years to at least go to a 14" tire with a 15" being best. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What experience/data is this based on? Max width on 14" and 15" is 225 but with 13" you can get 235.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That tiny 13 just can't handle the weight, as witnessed by the camber and heat problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Camber problems? Camber is independent of wheel diameter.
Heat problems? What heat problems? If anything the 13s have the advantage of getting up to temp quicker and any additional heat above that can be controlled with a warter sprayer.
What experience/data is this based on? Max width on 14" and 15" is 225 but with 13" you can get 235.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That tiny 13 just can't handle the weight, as witnessed by the camber and heat problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Camber problems? Camber is independent of wheel diameter.
Heat problems? What heat problems? If anything the 13s have the advantage of getting up to temp quicker and any additional heat above that can be controlled with a warter sprayer.
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Re: (Geratol)
The 235/45-13 Kumho is no wider than the new Hoosiers in 225/50-14 and 225/45-15.
I've also talked to one person in a lighter car (miata) on 13's who has overheated them mid-run on concrete.
I've also talked to one person in a lighter car (miata) on 13's who has overheated them mid-run on concrete.
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Re: (SiLooksStock)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiLooksStock »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The 235/45-13 Kumho is no wider than the new Hoosiers in 225/50-14 and 225/45-15.
I've also talked to one person in a lighter car (miata) on 13's who has overheated them mid-run on concrete. </TD></TR></TABLE>
1. True, however if the new 710s are made in the same sizes offered in the 700s then they will be wider then the hoosiers. Even if they don't make a 235 it's far easier to fit a 13x8.5 wheel then a 15x8.5 wheel to maximise a 225 tire, weighs less too.
2. I have had my 13's overheat in the middle of a run because I wasn't monitoring the temp when I pulled into grid (2 drivers, never checked temps, 8 runs total= overheating on the 6-8 runs). There is no way to overheat 13s from one run as long as you keep an eye on them after each run.
I've also talked to one person in a lighter car (miata) on 13's who has overheated them mid-run on concrete. </TD></TR></TABLE>
1. True, however if the new 710s are made in the same sizes offered in the 700s then they will be wider then the hoosiers. Even if they don't make a 235 it's far easier to fit a 13x8.5 wheel then a 15x8.5 wheel to maximise a 225 tire, weighs less too.
2. I have had my 13's overheat in the middle of a run because I wasn't monitoring the temp when I pulled into grid (2 drivers, never checked temps, 8 runs total= overheating on the 6-8 runs). There is no way to overheat 13s from one run as long as you keep an eye on them after each run.
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Re: (Geratol)
I'm not saying the 13" isn't a good solution, I'm just saying I want to try something else.
At 8180 rpm (this is the real live factory fuel cut in my car) in 2nd gear:
22.8" tire (Hoosier A3S04 225/50-14, 225/45-15): 59 mph
21.1" tire (Kumho 235/45-13, which hopefully will be offered in the V710 as you mentioned): 55 mph
20.7" tire (Hoosier 225/45-13): 54 mph
Heat issues aside, I guess it comes down to whether or not you want to heel and toe, because I know for damn sure that 60mph+ isn't just possible but inevitable on a big concrete lot.
At 8180 rpm (this is the real live factory fuel cut in my car) in 2nd gear:
22.8" tire (Hoosier A3S04 225/50-14, 225/45-15): 59 mph
21.1" tire (Kumho 235/45-13, which hopefully will be offered in the V710 as you mentioned): 55 mph
20.7" tire (Hoosier 225/45-13): 54 mph
Heat issues aside, I guess it comes down to whether or not you want to heel and toe, because I know for damn sure that 60mph+ isn't just possible but inevitable on a big concrete lot.
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From: OH
Re: (Geratol)
As soon as the Kumho has as much lateral grip as the Hoosier A, then we can discuss. Until then, it's moot.
Please someone put a 15" tire on a GSR and do some testing. I don't think you'll be dissapointed.
Please someone put a 15" tire on a GSR and do some testing. I don't think you'll be dissapointed.
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Re: (SiLooksStock)
Last year I was well into 3rd gear on a few courses at Devins while running the 235/13's. The shorter Hoosier may be a better bet since I could not carry enough speed in the mid speed sections to stay in 3rd so there were at least 10-12 shifts per run.
From a few posts on the scca forums site, the V710 15" tires will only be 205/50/15 and 225/50/15. The 245/15 that had been claimed is now said to never exist. Note that the 225 is now a 50 series instead of 45 as on the 700's so it's taller than the stock tires. I've heard mid summer for the 235/13 to become available.
From a few posts on the scca forums site, the V710 15" tires will only be 205/50/15 and 225/50/15. The 245/15 that had been claimed is now said to never exist. Note that the 225 is now a 50 series instead of 45 as on the 700's so it's taller than the stock tires. I've heard mid summer for the 235/13 to become available.
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Re: (SiLooksStock)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiLooksStock »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
20.7" tire (Hoosier 225/45-13): 54 mph
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Really? I can't imagine there being that much of a trans difference between a GS-R and an Si. With the stock 8200 fuel cutoff max speed for 2nd was just a hair shy of 60. with the Tec3 8500 cutoff I had it was slightly higher still. I rarely had to go to 3rd, even with the small tires.
20.7" tire (Hoosier 225/45-13): 54 mph
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Really? I can't imagine there being that much of a trans difference between a GS-R and an Si. With the stock 8200 fuel cutoff max speed for 2nd was just a hair shy of 60. with the Tec3 8500 cutoff I had it was slightly higher still. I rarely had to go to 3rd, even with the small tires.
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From: Columbia, MO, USA
Re: (Watkinsm3)
The Si trans has the same gearing as the ITR, maybe .01 shorter in 2nd (I can never remember which is 2.11 and which 2.10) but I thought the GSR and Si were the same up till third? That's weird.
I have a new limiter on the way too (also 8500, but going with Hondata because I have to tune it myself and I can't get my head around our FSAE car's part-throttle maps) which makes an even stronger case for the 13's.
I always forget that you can jimmy with the limiter in DSP.
I have a new limiter on the way too (also 8500, but going with Hondata because I have to tune it myself and I can't get my head around our FSAE car's part-throttle maps) which makes an even stronger case for the 13's.
I always forget that you can jimmy with the limiter in DSP.
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From: Doylestown, PA
Re: (SiLooksStock)
Yeah, if its closer to the R that makes a lot of sense. mid 50s with 13s is about right and it definitely makes sense to stay away from them. I'm pretty sure on my GS-R I could get to almost 62 in second. That's a huge difference.
If we (the GS-R crowd) went up in diameter it ends up like this...
your 22.8" Hoosier : 69mph
a 245 Hoosier 24.5" : 74ish (1st tops out at 45!)
Holy crrap! talk about never having to goto 3rd!
If we (the GS-R crowd) went up in diameter it ends up like this...
your 22.8" Hoosier : 69mph
a 245 Hoosier 24.5" : 74ish (1st tops out at 45!)
Holy crrap! talk about never having to goto 3rd!