has anyone use the phantom grip for drag, autocross or roadrace?
what is your opinion on it?

 

Junk, from what I've been told. You can get a proven Quaife for $895 for many Honda applications. Much more effective!

 

I've heard mixed reviews (I inquired not to long ago about one for my Celica).

Evidently they DO NOT hold up to high torque (the DSM guys can't use them with extra boost).

For low to moderate torque applications, they do apear to function as advertized. The problem is, I never heard any first hand information either. It was all 2nd or 3rd hand...

If you are mechanincally inclined, it might be worth the effort, otherwise, I agree, get the proven one.

What I really want one for is my '73 Celica, but that isn't on their application list. The install would be easy, and it needs something!

Scott

 

How do they work anyway?? the Quaife is gear driven right? Then there are the clutch pack types, but what is a "phantom grip"? And how can they sell it so CHEAP??? Scary cheap IMO...

 

The Phantom Grip is a very simple device, that does a very simple task. It is literally just two hard steel plates and 4 springs. It installs inside the stock diff, and applies pressure to the spyder gears, pushing them against the back of the casting that holds all the gears together. This pressure causes additional friction resisting the operation of the differential, just like a clutch type diff. The difference, of course, is that instead of clutch packs wearing, you have only metal on metal friction surfaces (with oil inbetween). There are several springs available to tune the amount of lockup desired.
I've had one for two years in my turbo E Mod Civic autocross car (the white Fastech 86 Civic for those who've been to any of the east coast tours or nationals). It worked for about a year and a half, then seemed to get weak. I pulled the tranny, expecting to see a bunch of metal and wear, and was supprised that there was basically no wear. I replaced the springs with the new stiffer ones, and it works great again.
There are comments about the Phantom Grip from quite a few serious racers on http://www.rivergate5speed.com


-Chris

 

basically phantom Slip isnt a real LSD all it does is lock the spider gears together. i would go with the quaife i have one and love it

 

Chris-

Thanks for the first hand experience. The fact you are still using one does say something.

Scott

 

>>I've had one for two years in my turbo E Mod Civic autocross car (the white Fastech 86 Civic for those who've been to any of the east coast tours or nationals).<<

Thanks for the info! So, in your opinion would the Phantom Grip be a viable option on a daily driven car?

Like a lot of folks interested in the Phantom Grip, I would prefer a "true" LSD, but the cost of a quaife is pretty hard to stomach. If something like a Phantom Grip can work even half as well (wouldn't expect it to work AS well), then it might be a cost-effective option. That is, as long as it doesn't harm the transmission and induce more costs in the future.

 

so if this is not a true lsd, would it put me out of sts?

 

>>so if this is not a true lsd, would it put me out of sts?<<

The rulebook sez "Engine and transmission must remain unmodified, including emissions equipment, except as noted below:".

So I would guess it's still illegal because it would be a mod to the transmission not explicitly allowed by the rules. That's how they interpret the SOLO2 rules. If it ain't specifically allowed, then it ain't allowed....

 

I've never really understood what people mean when they call something a 'real' or 'not a real' limited slip. There are many different types of limited slips available, and they all have their own benefits and shortcomings. I have first hand experience driving on nearly every combination of LSD in both FWD and RWD cars, and each one has it's own personality, which needs to be matched to the application. Here's a rundown of what I have learned over the years:

Locked Diff - this is when you weld all the gears in the diff together so you no longer have a differential. Obviously, you get no slip from one side to the other, but you also can't turn without slipping a tire. You might get by like this on a drag only car, but they are a real pain to drive, and FWD with welded diff will try to rip your arms off when turning.

Spool or locker - RWD only. These allow some slippage to occur before 'locking' the diff up when under power. Good for drag, but still can't turn well.

Quaife or Torsen type - These are very complicated gear based systems that are torque sensing. Probably the best type for autocrossing or road racing, although on FWD cars, they have a tendancy to 'hunt' for traction, which can make a car that tends to torque steer hard to drive. I really love Quaife's on RWD cars. The downsides are price and the limitation that both drive wheels need to be on the ground for the torque sensing mechanism to work.

Clutch types - I'm going to lump true clutch diffs and spring plates like the PG together, because they operate the same. These diffs have a pre-set amount of torque difference they can hold. When this threshold is overcome, they allow the differential to 'open.' There are obviously vast differences between brands and types of clutch diffs. There are tradeoffs between the static holding force (when both wheels are spinning the same speed) and the dynamic holding force (when the wheels are turning at different speeds, like cornering). High static holding force hurts turn-in, but may be needed to get enough dynamic holding force to effectively control wheelspin when exiting a corner. As can be imagined, the complexity and quality of the materials being used for friction surfaces varies tremendously. Advantages of this type are cost and availability. The downsides are that they all wear out eventually, and there is usually a pretty direct correlation between the amount of lockup and a loss in turn-in response.

-Chris

 

Not much to add but some recourses on LSD's and ATB's

Torsen style differential.
It really is a torque biasing assembly. The Quaife is also a Torsen style torque biasing differential. The difference is the preload spring washer in the center of the Quaife that makes it unique.

Torsen style diffs work by multiplying the torque (available traction) on the wheel with LESS traction and transfering that multiplied torque to the wheel with MORE traction. The problem is that if there is NO torque on one wheel (0 traction) the multiplied torque is still 0, and it acts like an open diff.

The Quaife preload spring washer creates an initial amount of torque (between the axle ends) that can be multiplied and transferred even with one wheel off the ground.

2-Way Limited-slip
A limited-slip differential that delivers the limited slip effect during both acceleration and deceleration. Stabilizes vehicle attitude during braking, thereby permitting even harder braking. Delivers powerful traction during acceleration, but clearly makes turning more difficult.
1.5-Way Limited-slip
Reduces the limited-slip effect during deceleration while maintaining the full limited-slip effect during acceleration. This ensures powerful traction and, during braking, prevents excessive reduction in the force of the car attempting to turn. Free of quirkiness, this is a good all-around limited-slip unit.
1-Way limited-slip
This limited-slip activates the limited-slip effect only during acceleration, and so is suitable for fwd vehicles, which are difficult tu turn under any conditions. The absence of the limited-slip effect during braking makes it possible to maximize turning power. However, the tendency of the vehicle to lose stability during braking should be noted. The shortcoming of this type of limited-slip is that vehicle
characteristics during acceleration change greatly when the accelerator is released to decelerate.

LSD Referance
http://www.quaifeamerica.com/ http://www.quaife.co.uk/info/links.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~jonaa/Torsen2.html http://members.aol.com/solomiata/MiataVLSD.html http://www.kaazusa.com/index.html http://www.a-t-s.co.jp/e-atshtml/frame.html

 

Just from an owners standpoint:
I have one and love it. It does just what it's supposed to do. It DOES not hold up in higher power cars (400+ from what I'm told, it allows the second wheel to stay put) and it doesn't have a lifetime warrenty that a Quaife has.

It DOES:
Make my Prelude handle better than stock when in some extreme twisties, yes we have them down here. Better than a Quaife? I couldn't tell you, I've never owned one. It also worked at the drag strip always leaving two solid black marks instead of one.

-Inlinefour

I'd have to agree with that statement.

EMod Civic: Hey, you should come down to Bham either tonight or Sunday. We're having an informal, spur of the moment H-T meet between a few of us.