I got to thinking about the whole header debate, and I got to wondering just how much better the HiTech header is compared to the Mugen and Spoon headers. From talking to a couple of people with the HiTech Header, they have seen gains around 20 hp. But here is where we aren't comparing apples to apples. To get this power, a piggy back computer is also added to the system for tuning purposes. There is nothing wrong with that, but when you compare that scenario with just slapping on say a Mugen header w/out the piggyback, it's no longer a fair comparison.

So, I am curious to find out if the HiTech is really that much better, or if you could get the Mugen header to perform similar to the HiTech with some tuning... Any thoughts?


[Modified by White Dragon, 6:57 AM 10/10/2001]

 

the only way is to dyno test...

i've got a toda to compare...

and a buddy has a stock itr so maybe we'll compare with just that...

he's also thinking about a spoon header, so we can compare those two on his basically stock itr...

if i ever get the $ for the hytech, i'll dyno that as well...

until then, i'm sure someone else might be able to help with the dyno comparison's... anyone with hytech header as their only power mod?

vagoITR, what was your "bolt-on" results before tuning?

*posting my little story here*

Bolt-on, I got 11whp from the toda header...

But the story isn't quite that simple: i dropped in the cams with toda valvetrain, Ti retainers, toda gen2 cam gears, and vafc and lost 2whp peak with some "safe" fuel settings on the vafc, and +2in, 0exh on the cam gears... This was stock header and exhaust. Previously I had dyno'd at 166whp with AEM CAI as my only mod. So 164 with toda b package!? But remember that the engine was choking on it's own exhaust, so after simply bolting on the toda header my whp jumped to 175 with no other changes. Still on some ultra-rich settings with the vafc.

Next, I plan to get the most accurate a/f meter I can find and do some tuning...


[Modified by Black R, 10:35 AM 10/10/2001]

 

In order to achieve the maximum gains of any header you must tune. Using a VAFC, I'm assuming you are referring to that, helps.

Most headers won't make great gains just by slapping them on. Real tuners/performance minded individuals redyno and tune their cars after each mod to extract the most power.

If you're not gonna invest in a VAFC, or take your car to a dyno, it doesn't make sense to spend lots of money on these parts if your not gonna tune it. You can't just slap on parts and expect good numbers.

A Hitech or SMS header is one step above the Mugen/spoon/Toda. There is no comparison.

I advise you to use the SEARCH button to get your anwsers. This question has been covered many times.

 

Yeah, search is good, but it's also nice to hear a dear old topic brought up again, in a rational discussion.
Even though I'm due to go boosting some time in the future I'm still entertaining the idea of a good N/A setup as well.

 

FAST94GSR: I agree with what you are saying in regards to tuning the car after adding components. I was more trying to get at given the required tuning was given to both, would the HiTech header REALLY be that much better than a Mugen/Spoon/Toda header. Given your response, you would say that the HiTech would still surpass the others, but would it be a significant amount, or are we talking 2-3 hp?

I know this has been talked about in the past, but I don't think I have seen a dyno comparison given the parameters above. That's all.

 

If you were to put the two side by side, you could tell right away which header would make more power. The hitech would probably make 10 more hp easy. Ask others, ask LIP he can tell you all about it

 

Hitech w/out a doubt. I saw my buddy jump for 186-201 w/ it on the roller at Dynamic DC 4-1 --> Hitech

 

Here is a back to back run of B18CXr's car with a JDM 4-1 vs the prototype SMSP header. Please look at the color code well, as the dyno guy likes to use opposite colors for the same run!

JDM 4-1 blue (whp) green (tq)
SMSP green (whp) blue (tq)

No other mod was made other than bolting the header on! All VAFC settings were the same. Notice the SMSP gained substantially in the mid-range and upper end.

 

that's a sweet torque curve, nice & flat!

 

Black R- really can't answer that one. I wasn't there to see any of it. Since my car was the prototype for the complete hytech system, i basically dropped it off and then picked it up when it was ready.

My car was completely stock prior to the mods. 170whp. After 187whp peak.
Midrange gained 20whp and 22ft lbs. These numbers were with cam gears and v-afc for tuning.

 

im kinda new to japanees tuning and i thought mugen spoon and toda were the best companies, whats hitech? whats the web-site?

 

http://www.hytechexhaust.com

 

Tell you all what. I have a Toda header and a JDM Mugen header just sitting around. If anyone lives near Detroit, Mi that wants to use a stock R for a dyno test we can run one. If anyone has a Hytech or Spoon in the area also, we can use those too.

A test like this will at least give a general idea on a stock ITR.

What do you guys think?

 

Please someone with a Stock ITR help the man out!! We will finnally get the truth!!, Imagine, no more posts about Spoon vs Toda, Mugen vs Hytech! etc etc.. the world would be a better place !

 

What about another player?

Would you run with a test pipe or cat?

What type of cat back? no real sense to bolt a JDM type header up to the stock cat back.

No cam gears, no CAI intake, just stock but with a new header and cat back???

 

Good questions Dave. I would love to have an SMSP header in this shoot-out.

Should be Stock ITR, w/test header, test pipe(to fit JDM header), stock or catback exhaust. This wouldn't be a pure scientific test, but all runs should be on the same car, same day, same dyno, with cool off time in-between. This would at least give people a base line to look at.

 

that would be amazingly helpful and i think everyone would kiss ur *** so much for doing it!

 

Chad,

I think we would want to use a 60mm cat back system at a minimum with a B tube adapter to ensure a smooth transition at the test tube. I would possibly build a 2-1/2" cat back system for the test if I had a buyer (slightly reduced price for a slightly used system). All other things should be bone stock, I don't even want to go down the AEM vs CompTech CAI road.

So we have a Toda, Mugen JDM and SMSP header so far. It shouldn't be hard to get a non ported JDM ITR. That leaves the HiTech, Spoon and JUN. I think the JUN maybe a hard one to find though. I vote that we don't do the test unless we can have at least 6 of the above. I think 2-3 runs with each should be sufficient.

I also want to say thanks for offering to pay for the dyno time to do the test.

I think we need to make this a dedicated thread.

SMSP - Who thinks test pipe sounds better than test tube, but....



[Modified by SMSP, 1:34 AM 10/11/2001]

 

we could make this less of a cost for TodaSi and the ITR volunteers by making donations to the cause...

"Honda-Tech Research & Development"

 

I don't think it is fair to compare a custom header like the HiTech and SMSP to the mass production header like the Mugen, Spoon, and TODA.

The HiTech header have almost no constraint when they design it except have it to fit properly on a car. Take a look at how long the HiTech header is!! There is no way to have it bolt up to the stock lenght aftermarket cat or test pipe unless you custom made those too.

For the Mugen, Spoon, and TODA header. They are produce to direct bolt on to the JDM Spec TypeR. With that in mind, the constraint when building the header was so much greater. Therefore, it would limit them on what they can do with their header.

I think the fair comparison would be Mugen vs Spoon vs TODA vs JDM TypeR. And have another test of HiTech vs SMSP. This way, people can tell which one is the best mass production header and which one is the best custom header.

I am sure if Mugen, Spoon, or TODA can build a header without any constraint, it would be just as good, if not better than the HiTech one.

 

That's why I think using a test pipe is the way to go. We could test all of them with probably 3 test pipes. We'll keep it simple by letting the 2nd O2 sensor sit in the passenger seat for the dyno ride. I don't mind building the 3 test pipes if needed, or if I do the cat back system I can incorporate the abjustable B tube and it shouldn't matter. Even if you break it down into 2 tests they all will be compared together since the car will be the same. My guess is that if someone is going to pay $950-$1300 for one of these headers a simple mod to a B tube won't be a big deal.

 

I guess you can do that, but I think my point is it is not fair to compare a mass production header to a custom made header. Everyone know the custom made one should performance better (If they don't, I think whoever made the custom one better go back to the drawing board and hide until they can make a better product!! ) Also, the price different between the Spoon or Mugen to the HiTech is like $400USD, and then add the cost of the custom cat or test pipe, then a modify b-pipe, I am sure the total cost with labour will be at least $500 more. Remember, $500 is a lot of $$, with the money, I can get a cheaper DC header and a AEM intake for winter use!!

 

Ok....well I got the hi tech header and my dyno results on a clayton were:

180.860/118.870

My mods are the header...aem cai...and VAFC.....I dynoed at area 51 in Irvine....Hope that helps some

 

When you guys are comparing the Hytech header with Mugen and Spoon, are you guys referring to the Honda V-Tech Street Header? or the Honda Drag Race Header? Which one is more appropriate for road course racing?

 

This is good, i think we should just test them all, you dont really have to catigorize them... people know what they are and thier purpose. Id be very willing to contribute $ for this cause (to pay for dyno time).. if everyone else is.. I think that it would be a good investment. We will finally get the answers we're looking for.