http://www.importreview.com/re....html


There is some pretty inflammatory stuff in here.....

 

Look pretty damn close to me. I couldn't say whether its a winner or loser from that...in fact the HyTech seems to make more midrange in certain RPM bands...

 

ya, it's got a big jump at what seem to be the vtec crossover point. However, if you read the info, the Hytech is fully tuned on the ITR motor and the SMSP piece was designed for a 2 liter and untuned.

Be prepare, flame war is about to ignite.

 

Wow the review they wrote sucks pretty bad. IMO, the Hytech won. However it wasn't a fair test anyway. For a header test to be completely 100% honestly fair, they have to both be brand new, build specifically for that engine, and tuned to their full potential.

 

I'm not sure how you guys missed it, but i posted it up..pg.2 header test.

where's my credit y0.. ..

some people argue that Jeff is biased.. and so on.. blah blah... someone needs to do this and record it on tape, so people can stop talking.

 

i did some search on web, but found no where can buy SMSP header?

 

You can PM "SMSP" on this board to purchase the header. Look in the archives for "SMSP" For more information.

 

I saw that dyno chart before. Looks completely even to me. I can't imagine any of the two headers would make the car faster then the other. Too bad they didn't show the stock header's curve so we could see how that particular motor performed stock. Was it 155 whp or 165 whp? Then you would know how much improvement the SMSP and HyTech headers give. What do they mean by fully tuned for the Hytech, as in Hondata maps, cam timing, fuel pressure, ignition timing? One might assume that the tuning was carried out with the Hytech and then the SMSP was put on using the same settings. Since those two headers have a lot of similarities, there might not be much left to gain by further tuning the engine for the SMSP. Also what was the exhaust system for the test?

I guess what would be the ideal comparo-test for these headers is to have a test with a stock ITR, then tune it with cam gears, Hondata, fuel pressure and ignition to see how far it could be improved. Then do the same with HyTech, SMSP and Comptech Race header (using a stock and then a better exhaust!). It would be nice. I suspect in the end all three of those headers would be similar in power curves, but you never know. I am ready to buy one of those exhaust systems. How can I choose, aside from price. I wanted to buy one last year, but didn't get around to it. I had contacted both Dave at SMSP and John at HyTech, and both seemed competent to me. Also Asahi seems to have had good success with his Comptech system, but I think he has no cat. Decisions, Decisions!

 

That's close to 2 years old. Fully tuned...yeah, cam gears and a VAFC, sure that's fully tuned...vtec was at ~4,500, where is the changeover on the SMS header...

I wont put any credence into the numbers just because it has Import Builders/Import Review's name on it, there are way too many politics involved. I'm not knocking any of the parts, just the company that did the testing and their methods. I would believe the test much more if they were done by an unbiased source.

Austin

 

Hence my ideal test as described above would be done by an un-biased source. What we need is a new header test for the long headers with anti-reversion chambers. I am willing to buy and supply one of the headers. Since I don't beforehand know the results of the test, I don't know which header to buy. Sorta like gambling. But I will be buying a header for sure, and I won't be driving with it until May. We need two more headers plus that un-biased tester with dyno, and a stock ITR of course. Anyone else willing to ante up?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Austin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's close to 2 years old. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Haven't both headers been redesigned since then?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hence my ideal test as described above would be done by an un-biased source. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Even if you could find a completely unbiased source, nobody would believe you!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Haven't both headers been redesigned since then?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep...the header was one of the prototypes, as well as the exhaust being the one and only prototype.

Austin

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Even if you could find a completely unbiased source, nobody would believe you! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Everyone has their own agenda, that's the problem. How do you figure out what header is the best? Simply bolting them on will not do. These headers need tuning, individual tuning! Who is going to put up tuning + dyno money for 3 setups on the same car? No one. Plus, people on here have ten thousand opinions and fingers to point, but no way is the majority of the 'interested' public on H-T going to give money for the cause. It's sad, but it is the way things are on here and probably every other web board. If people really want to know, they ought to be able to support this project financially. It should not be one or two people's responsibility to pay for everyone else to have some answers.

That said, I hope people get on board with Claude and try to dyno/tune the headers in question objectively and fairly, and hopefully the board will support such a venture. Obviously this would be a third-party type venture... one where a board sponsor/shop/company with a vested interest could not be involved whatsoever.

Chris - who says the word of the day ought to be hope.

 

Well, if anyone else is planning to buy a header this winter, and lend it to someone with dyno access, and perhaps a person like SgT to tune ( or anyone else others feel is a good choice), I will supply one of the headers + up to $100 for my share of the dyno tune. Obviously a few more players need to ante up. Any other curious players who are planning to buy a high end header and want to know which is best with tuning?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Obviously a few more players need to ante up. Any other curious players who are planning to buy a high end header and want to know which is best with tuning?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm sure we can drum up some interested parties.

 

i would definetly get the SMS one because Dave is a good guy, and i would do repeat business w/ him...

 

toda, spoon, type 1, smsp, and hytech, which one is better?
i have seen the dyno tested for some of the headers above, but never seen spoon header...

anyone have ideas?

 

The only FAIR Header Test is a test with NO TUNING.

Think about it real hard - it's the only way.

Can't agree?

That's fine.

So you do a test. And you play with cam gears, fuel, ignition, and VTEC. And some headers don't do as well as others.

And THEN the manufacturer of a "losing" header says something like: "There's alot more potential in my header than your test brought out. Put some more compression and cam duration and you'd see that."

And you then say: (What do you say?)

So I say: if you want to do "a fair" header test you do it like this: set a motor build spec and test headers that are made for that spec. Bolt on and run, bolt on and run. No tuning.

And how likely is that test to be agreed by all to be fair, useful, and worth doing?

Scott, who has come around to the idea that a header test is a Chinese Puzzle.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only FAIR Header Test is a test with NO TUNING.

Think about it real hard - it's the only way.

Can't agree?

That's fine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Scott, I'm sure you can agree that the exact opposite case can be applied to your post. Bolt on and dyno, then the loser bitches about A, B, and C, just the same as the loser in your scenario bitches about the need for more compression, etc. It's endless.

I think there is no absolutely ideal test. No one will ever agree.

Chris - who doesn't mean to say that another header test should not be done, just raising the flag that someone will always try to invalidate the test no matter how fair or comprehensive it may be.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only FAIR Header Test is a test with NO TUNING.

Think about it real hard - it's the only way.

Can't agree?

That's fine.

So you do a test. And you play with cam gears, fuel, ignition, and VTEC. And some headers don't do as well as others.

And THEN the manufacturer of a "losing" header says something like: "There's alot more potential in my header than your test brought out. Put some more compression and cam duration and you'd see that."

And you then say: (What do you say?)

So I say: if you want to do "a fair" header test you do it like this: set a motor build spec and test headers that are made for that spec. Bolt on and run, bolt on and run. No tuning.

And how likely is that test to be agreed by all to be fair, useful, and worth doing?

Scott, who has come around to the idea that a header test is a Chinese Puzzle.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

And how do you come up with the base ECU program? Stock? Not realistic.

But you are right about the Chinese puzzle. My only post (I think) to the Titan thread was, "be careful what you ask for".

Or the test could be on an agreed upon engine set up and then each tuner gets a couple hours for tuning (no one else gets to see the process) and then at the end of the day all the best graphs are compared.

 

Chris,

Of Course!

I have no choice but to agree.

That's the beauty of the puzzle.

Scott, who will be on a dyno again some day...playing with headers and tuning...but not expecting any epiphany.

 

Dave,

"Yeah, but how much of what results is "The Header", and how much is "The Tuner"?

I could play with this puzzle for hours.....NOT.

Scott, who hears you Dave...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chris,

Of Course!

I have no choice but to agree.

That's the beauty of the puzzle.

Scott, who will be on a dyno again some day...playing with headers and tuning...but not expecting any epiphany.</TD></TR></TABLE>

...and round and round we go, as I have no choice but to agree with you!

Chris - who says 'blah' and thinks that Dave said it best - be careful what you ask for!

 

All this talk is cheap. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. (since I need a header). I couldn't care less who likes the results. I said put each header on with stock engine, no tuning. See what you get. Then leaving engine mostly stock (pistons, cams, head, intake manifold, filter box) but do some mild tuning with a Hondata or an AEM or a Motec or whatever, adjust cam gears, ignition timing, fuel maps (by hopefully a competent person) and maybe add a little fuel pressure if required, and then see what each header can do using its own ideal setup. Oh yes and tune the motor with stock header to see how far out the stock motor might have been. Only other complication is exhaust system. Obviously stock case uses stock exhaust, and then bolt-on headers might benefit a lot from removing bottleneck due to stock exhaust. Since I am planning to replace exhaust as well, I can supply the exhaust and one header and $100 towards this long header test. Anyone else want to play? If someone wants to buy Dave's header, I could buy John's header or vice versa. Maybe I could get the Comptech like Asahi did.

While there might be an infinite number of variables, in life one makes a plan, makes a few comparisons and then one has to s*** or get off the pot. I don't think it would be real helpful to add say ITB's to the equation. I have no vested interest except my own! Ante up.

If you don't bet, you don't win.