well some of you might remember a few months a go i posted a really bad whp on a fully built h22.

i got a lot of responses about that too and most of them were good. well anyway i kinda figured out that my problems were involved in 2 primary areas, i hope. my header and cams. alot of people said to ditch the head. my head was not hogged out at all it was a nice relatively straight foward headwork, so i will not do that, well not yet.

i spuna bearing a few weeks ago and i am in the process of rebuilding it. i am waiting for my header-tech header and a i got as set of skunk2 stage 2. i heared alot of guys saying what is the compression pressure... well beforei tore it apart it was 215-225 psi, with 2% leakage. sounded good until i talked to endyne. they said 290 was good.(???)

what i found is that duration has a lot to do with compression ratio's right? so the higher sompression the longer or shorter the duration should be? the cams i had in ther were advertised as .474 and 260 duration, thats at .050". sounds good i thought. the skunk 2 is .505 and 267 degrees but these are in mm. the first is in ".

my biggest question is if i was to pick a problem with my low hp h22 should i get bigger, smaller, more or less duration cams? my full list is here:

h22
89mm endyne rollerwaves (coated) 12.49:1
eagle rods
knife edge crank
cut pulley
clutch and flywheel
p&p head
.5mm oversized valves
full ferea valvetrain
web cams
twm induction 50 mm itbs
440 cc
aem ems
wideband

kamikazi header and tanbe racing medalion on for testing. being replaced this time around.

i am going to measure every possible thing that i can, especially valve to valve clearance with the oversized valves and skunk 2 cams. i am going to find out exactly what my compression ratio is myself and rely on endyne. i am going to see what the cams are and not rely on skunk 2 and web.

skunk 2 stage 2 is what i am looking for 12.5 with headwork right? why is my h22 so ******* low in the hp? and what exactly does the compression pressure tell me about the cams that are in there?

 

think of it like this- duration is simply the amount of time your valves are being held open. THe longer you hold something open you create more of an opportunity for things to enter. In the case of a motor which is at it's most basic level an air pump, duration lets in more air allowing for more fuel and thus creating more horsepower. But there is a catch and that is compresion. Compresion is the power behind what makes the air and fuel combination combustible. The higher the compresion ratio the more volatile the misture of air and fuel becomes-hence the risk of detonatiing on a high compresion motor with pump gas. With a 12.2-1 motor like yours more duration is great. The skunk2 stage 2 cam would appear to be a great match for you motor. But remember, just because the cam is holding the valve open for a long time does not mean the cylidner head can flow enough air to properly charge the cylinder. Everything needs to work in sync complimenting one another. As for dynamic compresion and static compresion-static is the amount of compresion generated by the piston to combustion chamber tolerances only- dynamic compresion takes into account the duration of cam which bleads off cylinder pressure by holding valves open for such a long time. Big duration cams is why people are able to run 13.-1 on the street and not scatter piston tops all over the street. A 12-1 motor with b16 cams might read 290 cranking compresion psi and that same motor with a large primary cam like a toda c might read 260 psi.

 

hmm anyone else. i liked that btw. why you thik i have such low hp like 205?

 

Well, what did your graph look like ? A long duration cam will keep the valve open for an extended period, allowing for filling time, but on the downside, if the cam timing is not set properly, it will keep the valve open during the compression stroke, allowing mixture to reverse back into the intake mani.... The longer the duration, the more compression you will loose out of the valve on the compression stroke.

So you need to ask yourself... who set the intake cam timing, and was the calculation correct.

Also, along these lines.. you must consider exhaust cam timing... if the exhaust cam is not set w/ the proper timing, a similar problem occurs where the exhaust valves could be opening too soon, allowing combusting mixture (and thus potential power) to escape out the port.

HTH

 

i dont think the s2s2 h22 cams are big enough to need super high compression. a friend of mine made 200whp with those cams and a STOCK jdm header. he picked up about 15-20ish hp from his baseline dyno. thats in a jdm motor with the center layer of the headgaseket removed. mabye 10.9-11:1 compression

a bad valve job or bad valve adjustment will give you low compression numbers as well. with that compression you should be above 250. hell i had 235 on my stock jdm motor.

who tuned your car? did they use a tps based fuel map or map sensor based fuel map. what about the ignition map....

 

the cams were not degreed, that was my fault. i had a lot of clearance so i was confident on moving them on the dyno. i moved bothe cams on the dyno about 4 degrees both ways. it was tuned by Payn in detroit. good tuner. vlave jobs all good. 2% leakage. it was a tps based map. thanks for the help.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont think the s2s2 h22 cams are big enough to need super high compression. a friend of mine made 200whp with those cams and a STOCK jdm header. he picked up about 15-20ish hp from his baseline dyno. thats in a jdm motor with the center layer of the headgaseket removed. mabye 10.9-11:1 compression

a bad valve job or bad valve adjustment will give you low compression numbers as well. with that compression you should be above 250. hell i had 235 on my stock jdm motor.

who tuned your car? did they use a tps based fuel map or map sensor based fuel map. what about the ignition map.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

here is what i would do... get a vacuum manifold and use the stock maps sensor. there is an option to do a tps based fuel map and keep the ign map mapsensor based. having the ign timing throttle based can do some weird things.

 

my ign timing is map based. my fuel is tps, just like aem suggests.

 

oh, ok.. i must have read wrong.

any way you can send me your calibration and your dyno graph? maybe you have something screwy goin on

normally itbs like a big cam..

 

i dont know how to do that. sorry, so do i need more duration or less duration based on the stuff i have given you? i had the head done and i could have swore it flowed 363 cfm.... sounds like that is way off, but if in fact it did than endyne said that i will probably need less duration can you explain why?

 

sounds like you need more cam.

i dunno, id try to make sure nuthing is wrong before you start changing cams and ****. check the valve adjustment

 

Longer duration cams need more static compression due to the fact of them bleeding off cyl pressure at lower RPMs.If your compression test #'s are correct and you had only 2% leakdown,it sounds as though you dont have the compression you should have.Who assembled the motor?Do you know the specs like piston to deck height,the head cc's,and head gasket compressed thickness and bore(or cc's if given)?If this is the case you should get the smaller duration cam it will create more cyl pressure in your application.You realize this is of course a guess from only seeing your compression test and leakdown tests,but if Endyne say's they get 290 w/same set-up something is wrong.Dont remember your dyno can you repost?

 

you people put too much in the whole static compression and cams idea. there are people making more power than him with less compression, stock intakes and bigger cams.

 

yea i know that sucks.huh

 

what was your a/f raito on your pulls with those 440's. Start simple. Redo the valve adjustment you could have them to tight- Repalce fuel filter, check plug gap, clean the plugs, check your distirbutor for wear, any tears in the spark plug wires, fuel pump could be getting tired? any vac lines disconnected? What is your fuel pressure under WOT? 2% leakage is great considering stock motors ussualy show 8-10% mostly by the rings, maybe your leak down test was done diffrently. What did you pressurize the cylinders to during the test? Maybe it is a problem with your EMS? Your cam selection is absolutely fine for your motor though, plenty of compresion and dispalcement. Hope you figure it out.

 

any other idea's guys??

 

I think we found the problem,he came to the shop last night and I took a look and we discovered when his vtec lobe developed a flat spot(about .250 wide) on the top of the lobe it was slaping the rocker arm into the low lift lobe's retainer and bleeding off cyl pressure at low rpm's and wasn't getting full lift in vtec either.

 

wtf.... any idea what caused that?

 

Bad cam core I would guess.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fkned &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think we found the problem,he came to the shop last night and I took a look and we discovered when his vtec lobe developed a flat spot(about .250 wide) on the top of the lobe it was slaping the rocker arm into the low lift lobe's retainer and bleeding off cyl pressure at low rpm's and wasn't getting full lift in vtec either. </TD></TR></TABLE>


seen this many times, mostly from people who go too tight on valvelash and change their motor oil every 10k miles then wonder why the motor is giving problems.


Greg

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CHEETAH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">seen this many times, mostly from people who go too tight on valvelash.</TD></TR></TABLE>Possibly,he bottomed out the adj nut and screw.


Modified by fkned at 9:50 PM 12/15/2003

 

no way on the valve lash. i had that **** set at .010. like web said so. web is taking a look at the cams. i shipped them out with the rockers. so far they sound good. i was thinking, you know that the b series cams has the dis on the intake cam and the h22 has the dis onthe ex. what are the chances that they may have got the cams backwards when they ground them? and i also changed the oil about 6 times in 4000 miles, with mobil 1 after break in. any other ideas what may have caused it?

 

Was there assembly lube on the cams when installed ? (seems like a stupid question...but you never know)

 

i used the stuff they gave me. the red sticky ****.