The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year
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From: Plotting My Revenge
The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year
We'll ignore the buying and selling of the first car that was illegal because it ended up being a financial wash (sold the tub for what it cost me to buy and cage a new tub... swapped over the legal parts to new tub). Manhours weren't tracked closely and are estimated.
End Of Year Garage Inventory:
- Fully Prepped 91 ITC Civic. Totally legal. Finished 5th of 16 at the ARRC, Potential to win same.
- Spare disassembled race motor (not a junker, a full prep race motor).
- 5 sets of wheels (ebay is your friend)
- 24 usable Hoosier 03s (inherited some donated takeoffs for a couple of test days)
- 1 set unused Dirt Stockers
- Spare assembled front hubs/spindles
- Spare pads, rotors, drums, shoes.
- Several ECUs
- 2 Spare Trannys (one with an LSD)
- Box of spare parts (Dist, Plug Wires, Sensors, belts, hoses,)
- 2 Spare flywheels (one lightened that I need to sell 'cause its eeeleeegulll).
- 2 Spare Clutches
Ran a healthy schedule. Had two 2nds, Four 3rds, a 5th and a 6th, in regionals and a 5th at the ARRC. Also ran one Enduro and finished 3rd. No failures or DNFs.
Costs:
Total $$$ Expenditure was $9600 excluding consumables (Tires and Brake Pads).
Bought two sets of dry Hoosiers and one set of Dirt Stockers - $1600. All are still very usable with plenty of life. Brake pad usage looks like its going to be about 1 to 1.5 sets per year. Rear shoes look like they will last a couple of seasons (at least).
Manhours - About 100ish. This includes Blake machining and assembling the new motor.
Now, I had ALOT of sponsorship help with things like the cage, F.D., and various items from other places like Kirk, Phil, RRG, OPM and such. Blake also built the 2nd motor in return for getting to drive the car at the ARRC, so that cost pretty much nothing.
But you don't NEED a car prepped like mine, a new paint job, or several extra motors and transmissions to compete and have fun in ITC. Yeah, if you wanna win the ARRC you need to do it, but otherwise... nah. You also find that there are lots of parts like motors and trannys out there that are free. People do swaps and just want to get rid of that "worthless" D15B1 and 4 speed tranny
.
You can easily build a NICE ITC car for $10K and run up front (assuming you can drive ). You can buy a front runner for about $7 to $8K. I've seen logbooked, safe cars for as little as $3000.
Think about this, and how much you spend to HPDE or Autocross, the next time you say "I can't afford to race."
I've found that it is very often more like "I can't afford to race the car that I really want to race."
Scott, who was motivated to share this after seeing RJs post about bailing on the Integra project because it was getting so expensive.
End Of Year Garage Inventory:
- Fully Prepped 91 ITC Civic. Totally legal. Finished 5th of 16 at the ARRC, Potential to win same.
- Spare disassembled race motor (not a junker, a full prep race motor).
- 5 sets of wheels (ebay is your friend)
- 24 usable Hoosier 03s (inherited some donated takeoffs for a couple of test days)
- 1 set unused Dirt Stockers
- Spare assembled front hubs/spindles
- Spare pads, rotors, drums, shoes.
- Several ECUs
- 2 Spare Trannys (one with an LSD)
- Box of spare parts (Dist, Plug Wires, Sensors, belts, hoses,)
- 2 Spare flywheels (one lightened that I need to sell 'cause its eeeleeegulll).
- 2 Spare Clutches
Ran a healthy schedule. Had two 2nds, Four 3rds, a 5th and a 6th, in regionals and a 5th at the ARRC. Also ran one Enduro and finished 3rd. No failures or DNFs.
Costs:
Total $$$ Expenditure was $9600 excluding consumables (Tires and Brake Pads).
Bought two sets of dry Hoosiers and one set of Dirt Stockers - $1600. All are still very usable with plenty of life. Brake pad usage looks like its going to be about 1 to 1.5 sets per year. Rear shoes look like they will last a couple of seasons (at least).
Manhours - About 100ish. This includes Blake machining and assembling the new motor.
Now, I had ALOT of sponsorship help with things like the cage, F.D., and various items from other places like Kirk, Phil, RRG, OPM and such. Blake also built the 2nd motor in return for getting to drive the car at the ARRC, so that cost pretty much nothing.
But you don't NEED a car prepped like mine, a new paint job, or several extra motors and transmissions to compete and have fun in ITC. Yeah, if you wanna win the ARRC you need to do it, but otherwise... nah. You also find that there are lots of parts like motors and trannys out there that are free. People do swaps and just want to get rid of that "worthless" D15B1 and 4 speed tranny
.You can easily build a NICE ITC car for $10K and run up front (assuming you can drive
). You can buy a front runner for about $7 to $8K. I've seen logbooked, safe cars for as little as $3000.Think about this, and how much you spend to HPDE or Autocross, the next time you say "I can't afford to race."
I've found that it is very often more like "I can't afford to race the car that I really want to race."
Scott, who was motivated to share this after seeing RJs post about bailing on the Integra project because it was getting so expensive.
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Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Think about this, and how much you spend to HPDE or Autocross, the next time you say "I can't afford to race."</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't forget must of us HPDE guys don't have a truck to tow with, and a trailer. They both also cost $$
Even if you can get a cheep race car for 3K, you still need a 1K+ trailer, and most likely 5K+ for the truck, then 4K or more per year to run the car (entry fee, tires). That's still not cheep at 13K+ for the 1st year alone.
Don't forget must of us HPDE guys don't have a truck to tow with, and a trailer. They both also cost $$
Even if you can get a cheep race car for 3K, you still need a 1K+ trailer, and most likely 5K+ for the truck, then 4K or more per year to run the car (entry fee, tires). That's still not cheep at 13K+ for the 1st year alone.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (57STS)
And when I punch the wall exiting turn one I still have something that I can drive home...
And you can drive your race car to the track, just like your HPDE car. I wouldn't, but you can.
Scott, who says driving a truck with quiet exhaust, auto tranny, A/C and nice stereo ain't so bad.
And you can drive your race car to the track, just like your HPDE car. I wouldn't, but you can.
Scott, who says driving a truck with quiet exhaust, auto tranny, A/C and nice stereo ain't so bad.
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From: Shiny side up dammit, MO
Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And you can drive your race car to the track, just like your HPDE car. I wouldn't, but you can.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i know a few people who do that. i'd do it if i had a SSC car. i wouldn't even think twice about it.
And you can drive your race car to the track, just like your HPDE car. I wouldn't, but you can.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i know a few people who do that. i'd do it if i had a SSC car. i wouldn't even think twice about it.
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From: I started it
Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (57STS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 57STS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't forget must of us HPDE guys don't have a truck to tow with, and a trailer. They both also cost $$ </TD></TR></TABLE>
A valid point. But with a tow vehicle, you now have a safe, reliable, comfortable vehicle to drive daily. Not a *fun* vehicle to drive daily so much, but certainly safe reliable and comfortable. And they do great when you decide to crash them (don't ask)
So if you've got an HPDE plaything you drive on the weekends and a beater you drive around town, take the expenses you're putting towards the beater (insurance, gas, possible loan payment) and put it towards the truck. Now it's not so bad.
Of course if youre like me and are driving the (loud, uncomfortable, often broken, hard riding, attention getting) track car daily, a tow vehicle and trailer represents a significant cost adder.
I think Scott was just trying to illustrate that racing a car, at the frontof the pack, doesn't cost so much. If I weren't already so deep in with my GS-R, I'd do something like this. Cheap(er) fun is good.
</TD></TR></TABLE>A valid point. But with a tow vehicle, you now have a safe, reliable, comfortable vehicle to drive daily. Not a *fun* vehicle to drive daily so much, but certainly safe reliable and comfortable. And they do great when you decide to crash them (don't ask)
So if you've got an HPDE plaything you drive on the weekends and a beater you drive around town, take the expenses you're putting towards the beater (insurance, gas, possible loan payment) and put it towards the truck. Now it's not so bad.
Of course if youre like me and are driving the (loud, uncomfortable, often broken, hard riding, attention getting) track car daily, a tow vehicle and trailer represents a significant cost adder.
I think Scott was just trying to illustrate that racing a car, at the frontof the pack, doesn't cost so much. If I weren't already so deep in with my GS-R, I'd do something like this. Cheap(er) fun is good.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (JeffS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice...
I was expecting a slightly higher pricetag. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I used the Grassroots $2003 Challenge approach. Sold items were subtracted from the total. I also had plenty of help from Sponsors.
To completely duplicate my car (remember, I have pretty much new everything... bushings, bearings, hubs, motor, tranny, paint, brake system) it'd cost about $13 to $14K with no help from sponsors. Thats still cheaper than SM, ITA, ITS, etc.
You can get out there less pimpy than what I have for less money. And remember that one of the beauties of ITC is the consumable usage (or lack of). Will Perry, who finished 2nd at the ARRC, is still using rear shoes he installed at the beginning of 2002.
My 2nd choice for build was a 1998 Neon for SSC. They are cheap (good ones can be had for $4000ish), parts are plentiful, and they are still competitive. I figured you could put one on track with a pimpy cage, fresh motor/tranny, nice seat, and fresh shocks for about $10K. It'd go through more brakes and tires, but its still a pretty cheap way to race.
No real reason I didn't choose that route. I just didn't.
I'm looking forward to 2004. We've pretty much got the motor issues from the ARRC figured out and the rest of the car is well sorted (it handles like its on rails). I've got enough leftover tires and spares from 2003 that I should be able to race next year just on the cost of travel and entry fees (provided the race gods are kind and I don't crash or blow up).
As to the entry fees question - It varies by track and event. But a single regional weekend usually costs $125 to $150 (about an hour of seat time) and a double is about $250 to $300 (surprisingly, about 2 hours of seat time). The SIC (SARRC Invitational Challenge) at Roebling is the deal of the year in the S.E. About 1.5 hours of seat time and double points for $125.
I was expecting a slightly higher pricetag. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I used the Grassroots $2003 Challenge approach. Sold items were subtracted from the total. I also had plenty of help from Sponsors.
To completely duplicate my car (remember, I have pretty much new everything... bushings, bearings, hubs, motor, tranny, paint, brake system) it'd cost about $13 to $14K with no help from sponsors. Thats still cheaper than SM, ITA, ITS, etc.
You can get out there less pimpy than what I have for less money. And remember that one of the beauties of ITC is the consumable usage (or lack of). Will Perry, who finished 2nd at the ARRC, is still using rear shoes he installed at the beginning of 2002.
My 2nd choice for build was a 1998 Neon for SSC. They are cheap (good ones can be had for $4000ish), parts are plentiful, and they are still competitive. I figured you could put one on track with a pimpy cage, fresh motor/tranny, nice seat, and fresh shocks for about $10K. It'd go through more brakes and tires, but its still a pretty cheap way to race.
No real reason I didn't choose that route. I just didn't.
I'm looking forward to 2004. We've pretty much got the motor issues from the ARRC figured out and the rest of the car is well sorted (it handles like its on rails). I've got enough leftover tires and spares from 2003 that I should be able to race next year just on the cost of travel and entry fees (provided the race gods are kind and I don't crash or blow up).
As to the entry fees question - It varies by track and event. But a single regional weekend usually costs $125 to $150 (about an hour of seat time) and a double is about $250 to $300 (surprisingly, about 2 hours of seat time). The SIC (SARRC Invitational Challenge) at Roebling is the deal of the year in the S.E. About 1.5 hours of seat time and double points for $125.
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From: Phoenix, Arizona, United States
Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> People do swaps and just want to get rid of that "worthless" D15B1 and 4 speed tranny </TD></TR></TABLE>
I recently threw away my old B1 and 4-spd... they both worked fine although having over 200,000mi on them. Now I suppose everybody's going to want to set up an ITC car and I could've sold them....
</TD></TR></TABLE>I recently threw away my old B1 and 4-spd... they both worked fine although having over 200,000mi on them. Now I suppose everybody's going to want to set up an ITC car and I could've sold them....
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From: I am Tyson
Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (Catch 22)
scott, glad you had a great season and was able to keep the cost down. i totally see the point of this post and what youre trying to say and agree. but you also gotta figure in the experience you got in the year before racing learning first how to control costs, which costs were important to having fun, or being that extra bit competitive and whatnot. basically i tihnk everyones gotta go thru being the newbie racer and learn for themselves anyway. and that usually is gonna be costly, but offset by wisdom and prudence in hopefully the following seasons. or otherwise, racing just becomes the big money pit, as we all know as well...
i honestly wish i started in another class than ITA.
i honestly wish i started in another class than ITA.
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Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (Catch 22)
without tires, I'm gonna clock at about $14,500 for a H4 legal car. Good stuff all around. But no fancy schmancy paint job. Add another $2500 and I've got an F-prod car, in limited prep. looking at the DC region SCCA lap times around summit, it would definitely be locally competitive in F-prod, especially on slicks!
Here the rough break-down:
- shell, air dam, graphics: $500
- suspension: $2000
- brakes: $500
- wheels: $400 (2 sets of 14x6)
- car safety: $2600
- engine+: $5000 (race prep, intake, header, etc...)
- transmission: $3000 (LSD, final drive, clutch, flywheel, hubs, axles, bearings, etc...)
- ergonomics: $500
Hopefully, after I run a whole season, I can start shopping for sponsors.
Modified by SJR at 10:45 AM 11/17/2003
Here the rough break-down:
- shell, air dam, graphics: $500
- suspension: $2000
- brakes: $500
- wheels: $400 (2 sets of 14x6)
- car safety: $2600
- engine+: $5000 (race prep, intake, header, etc...)
- transmission: $3000 (LSD, final drive, clutch, flywheel, hubs, axles, bearings, etc...)
- ergonomics: $500
Hopefully, after I run a whole season, I can start shopping for sponsors.
Modified by SJR at 10:45 AM 11/17/2003
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (Tyson)
Karl and I have talked many times about how we wished someone would have caught us early and explained how expensive it is to run a GS-R vs. something like an ITC car. Nobody ever did. We had to learn the hard way, and once you get in so far its hard to back out.
Would we have listened? I dunno, but it would have been nice to have an experienced someone say "Ya know, that Integra's gonna go through 12 tires and 4 sets of brake pads each season and an ITC Civic will go through less than 1/2 that much." Again, I'm not sure if we'd have listened, but it would have been a nice data point to have.
Scott, just providing data points.
PS - My current plan is to run ITC for another year, maybe two. Then move up to G Prod. I think a visit to the runoffs would be cool.
Another bonus of the ITC car - Class flexibility without much $$$ (relatively speaking).
Would we have listened? I dunno, but it would have been nice to have an experienced someone say "Ya know, that Integra's gonna go through 12 tires and 4 sets of brake pads each season and an ITC Civic will go through less than 1/2 that much." Again, I'm not sure if we'd have listened, but it would have been a nice data point to have.
Scott, just providing data points.
PS - My current plan is to run ITC for another year, maybe two. Then move up to G Prod. I think a visit to the runoffs would be cool.
Another bonus of the ITC car - Class flexibility without much $$$ (relatively speaking).
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Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (krshultz)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A valid point. But with a tow vehicle, you now have a safe, reliable, comfortable vehicle to drive daily.
SNIP</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not necessarily, but that's just me.
Keith, who would really *hate* to daily drive a Winnebago, especially mine...
A valid point. But with a tow vehicle, you now have a safe, reliable, comfortable vehicle to drive daily.
SNIP</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not necessarily, but that's just me.
Keith, who would really *hate* to daily drive a Winnebago, especially mine...
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Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (kedwards)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A valid point. But with a tow vehicle, you now have a safe, reliable, comfortable vehicle to drive daily.
SNIP</TD></TR></TABLE>
My truck is not all the comfortable, and the reliable thing is also questionalbe as my truck's tranny is laying on my floor as I put a new clutch in, and new shift linkage for the 4WD transfer case.
SNIP</TD></TR></TABLE>
My truck is not all the comfortable, and the reliable thing is also questionalbe as my truck's tranny is laying on my floor as I put a new clutch in, and new shift linkage for the 4WD transfer case.
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Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (Swiss Gary)
HPDE - High Performance Driver Education. Sometimes called open tracking. Driving cars on a race track, usually with in car instructors and passing rules. http://www.trackschedule.com/ for you east coasters.
ECHC - East Coast Honda Challenge. http://www.honda-challenge.com/. A road racing series for Hondas sanctioned by NASA-VA.
ECHC - East Coast Honda Challenge. http://www.honda-challenge.com/. A road racing series for Hondas sanctioned by NASA-VA.
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From: Nuck FASA, VA, USA
HPDE: High Performance Driving Event
A track day, where most people are driving street cars, most of them receiving instruction.
ECHC: East Coast Honda Challenge
A race series for only Hondas, now in other areas of the country, but pioneered on the east coast by Catch22 and krshultz.
A track day, where most people are driving street cars, most of them receiving instruction.
ECHC: East Coast Honda Challenge
A race series for only Hondas, now in other areas of the country, but pioneered on the east coast by Catch22 and krshultz.
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Re: The Final Tally For Buiding and Racing an ITC Car for One Year (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Costs:
Total $$$ Expenditure was $9600 excluding consumables (Tires and Brake Pads).
Bought two sets of dry Hoosiers and one set of Dirt Stockers - $1600. All are still very usable with plenty of life. Brake pad usage looks like its going to be about 1 to 1.5 sets per year. Rear shoes look like they will last a couple of seasons (at least)....
Now, I had ALOT of sponsorship help with things...
Think about this, and how much you spend to HPDE or Autocross, the next time you say "I can't afford to race."
I've found that it is very often more like "I can't afford to race the car that I really want to race."...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now, while that last line may have some truth to it, I don't think you've given a fair approximation of the real cost to run ITC.
$9600.... for the car. Where are the entry fees? The hotel rooms? The gas bills?
When you start adding that very necessary part of the cost into the equation, then the costs go up. Granted, running National level autocross also requires hotel and more gas bills, but if you just run a local series like many on HT do, the difference in costs becomes much more noticeable.
For one year of autocross (like you, not counting the travel costs), I spent $1000 on 6 Hoosiers (plus won two of them), and which are now on Pat's rims for use on his Formula (well, more like he took them, but the point is that they still have life in them). Add $100 for a differential (free install, thank you Chesapeake Transmission!), about $1000 in suspension, $100 in bearings and $350 for a clutch (replacing worn components -- again, got on the cheap from a Chevy dealer contact), and I still have a daily driver in the driveway!
Granted, I'm not including the $350 helicoil debacle, since that was caused by incompetence on the part of the mechanic who installed the torque arm bushings, but even with that, considering a fourth gen LT1 car can be bought for less than $5000 and Koni SAs all around for ~$800 (and the car that won FS this year was a '95 single cat car with all options -- including T-tops), the idea that showing a decent ITC car is $9600 w/o consumables and concluding that autox and HPDEs aren't "too far off" is a little far-fetched.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Scott, who was motivated to share this after seeing RJs post about bailing on the Integra project because it was getting so expensive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Scott, I think that you are underestimating the help on costs you got. Building a car is a heck of a lot more expensive than just buying one. I think what motivates someone to build a car isn't always the fact that they want to run a particular car (like Pat and his SE-R), but the worry that can come with buying someone else's car. Is it legal? is the least of the worries in my book. Is there something that the seller isn't telling me? would be a big one. Electrical gremlins are tough to track down. Did the owner miss a shift, shoot past redline, and decide to dump the car really fast before the motor came apart? Has it started getting crunchy going into 3rd gear? Is it the racecar version of a lemon? Sure, you can get that $3000 Ford Fiesta, but do you really know what you're getting? If you build your own car, you know what is done to it, period. But, you're going to dump a lot more cash into it than you will ever get back.
Don't get me wrong... I'd like to get into the money pit that is roadracing. But autocross fits into my budget right now, and I am realistic enough to know that roadracing doesn't.
Karen
Total $$$ Expenditure was $9600 excluding consumables (Tires and Brake Pads).
Bought two sets of dry Hoosiers and one set of Dirt Stockers - $1600. All are still very usable with plenty of life. Brake pad usage looks like its going to be about 1 to 1.5 sets per year. Rear shoes look like they will last a couple of seasons (at least)....
Now, I had ALOT of sponsorship help with things...
Think about this, and how much you spend to HPDE or Autocross, the next time you say "I can't afford to race."
I've found that it is very often more like "I can't afford to race the car that I really want to race."...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now, while that last line may have some truth to it, I don't think you've given a fair approximation of the real cost to run ITC.
$9600.... for the car. Where are the entry fees? The hotel rooms? The gas bills?
When you start adding that very necessary part of the cost into the equation, then the costs go up. Granted, running National level autocross also requires hotel and more gas bills, but if you just run a local series like many on HT do, the difference in costs becomes much more noticeable.
For one year of autocross (like you, not counting the travel costs), I spent $1000 on 6 Hoosiers (plus won two of them), and which are now on Pat's rims for use on his Formula (well, more like he took them, but the point is that they still have life in them). Add $100 for a differential (free install, thank you Chesapeake Transmission!), about $1000 in suspension, $100 in bearings and $350 for a clutch (replacing worn components -- again, got on the cheap from a Chevy dealer contact), and I still have a daily driver in the driveway!
Granted, I'm not including the $350 helicoil debacle, since that was caused by incompetence on the part of the mechanic who installed the torque arm bushings, but even with that, considering a fourth gen LT1 car can be bought for less than $5000 and Koni SAs all around for ~$800 (and the car that won FS this year was a '95 single cat car with all options -- including T-tops), the idea that showing a decent ITC car is $9600 w/o consumables and concluding that autox and HPDEs aren't "too far off" is a little far-fetched.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Scott, who was motivated to share this after seeing RJs post about bailing on the Integra project because it was getting so expensive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Scott, I think that you are underestimating the help on costs you got. Building a car is a heck of a lot more expensive than just buying one. I think what motivates someone to build a car isn't always the fact that they want to run a particular car (like Pat and his SE-R), but the worry that can come with buying someone else's car. Is it legal? is the least of the worries in my book. Is there something that the seller isn't telling me? would be a big one. Electrical gremlins are tough to track down. Did the owner miss a shift, shoot past redline, and decide to dump the car really fast before the motor came apart? Has it started getting crunchy going into 3rd gear? Is it the racecar version of a lemon? Sure, you can get that $3000 Ford Fiesta, but do you really know what you're getting? If you build your own car, you know what is done to it, period. But, you're going to dump a lot more cash into it than you will ever get back.
Don't get me wrong... I'd like to get into the money pit that is roadracing. But autocross fits into my budget right now, and I am realistic enough to know that roadracing doesn't.
Karen
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From: ct, usa
When talking about costs to build and run a race season, there are many, many different "levels". Yes, to build a front winning car it is very expensive. But it doesn't have to be that expensive for someone that is looking to go out and race, learn and have a great time.
Another consideration - I definately agree that building a prepared ITC car will be less expensive then higher classes. But, you also have to take the region you will be racing into consideration. In the NER of SCCA, all of the ITC cars that typically run there are very well built / prepared and there are only a few (say about 6 per weekend). So if you want to run ITC, you "need" a better prepared car.
I run in ITA where we have a good 25 plus cars each race weekend. Several of the 25 cars are not even close to being fully prepared. My car has a stock motor and very few bolt on goodies. With the car as it is, I run mid-pack and know I'll never be able to get to the front. I also run with some other local clubs am able run with the leaders or even become the leader.
I like the grass roots challenge method. Run the basic stuff on the car (with all safety gear of course) and forget the go-fast parts for a while. Use your money on the events and becoming a better driver.
It is possible to buy a car with all the safety gear for $3,000 - $4,000 total. You'll still have a blast out there and will find many people to race with.
My friend runs an '87 Toyota MR2. It is a very budget friendly car, to the point where I get a bit pissy when he is still running the same darn tires for the past 2 race seasons and still has tread on it. And yes, he does drive it very hard and unfortunately typically beats me. Brakes? Again, very easy on them as well. I also know you can also find very cheap '87ish MR2s out there.
So yes, racing is NOT cheap but it does not have to be as expensive as most people make it. Do you want to get out there and race, learn and have a great time or do you want to save up so you can buy a front pack car and maybe someday be able to afford the high budget racing?
I would bet that a pretty good driver could run an essentially stock ITA CRX si or Integra - all safety gear, strip interrior, stock springs, race pads - and be close to mid-pack in many regions. Of course it would better to have other goodies, but definately think it could be done. With a decent suspension (for less than $1,000), I would guarantee that it could a mid-pack car.
Another consideration - I definately agree that building a prepared ITC car will be less expensive then higher classes. But, you also have to take the region you will be racing into consideration. In the NER of SCCA, all of the ITC cars that typically run there are very well built / prepared and there are only a few (say about 6 per weekend). So if you want to run ITC, you "need" a better prepared car.
I run in ITA where we have a good 25 plus cars each race weekend. Several of the 25 cars are not even close to being fully prepared. My car has a stock motor and very few bolt on goodies. With the car as it is, I run mid-pack and know I'll never be able to get to the front. I also run with some other local clubs am able run with the leaders or even become the leader.
I like the grass roots challenge method. Run the basic stuff on the car (with all safety gear of course) and forget the go-fast parts for a while. Use your money on the events and becoming a better driver.
It is possible to buy a car with all the safety gear for $3,000 - $4,000 total. You'll still have a blast out there and will find many people to race with.
My friend runs an '87 Toyota MR2. It is a very budget friendly car, to the point where I get a bit pissy when he is still running the same darn tires for the past 2 race seasons and still has tread on it. And yes, he does drive it very hard and unfortunately typically beats me. Brakes? Again, very easy on them as well. I also know you can also find very cheap '87ish MR2s out there.
So yes, racing is NOT cheap but it does not have to be as expensive as most people make it. Do you want to get out there and race, learn and have a great time or do you want to save up so you can buy a front pack car and maybe someday be able to afford the high budget racing?
I would bet that a pretty good driver could run an essentially stock ITA CRX si or Integra - all safety gear, strip interrior, stock springs, race pads - and be close to mid-pack in many regions. Of course it would better to have other goodies, but definately think it could be done. With a decent suspension (for less than $1,000), I would guarantee that it could a mid-pack car.
Thread Starter
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: (granracing)
I hear you Karen, but keep in mind that you run a STOCK car.
What I'm saying is that one can build a nice ITC car for what they might spend on a suspensioned and mildly tweeked track ***** (say a 3rd gen GSR) or a competitive Street Prep car.
Sure, I can do a regional G Stock Neon for alot less than an ITC car, but thats not apples to apples.
What I was referring to was guys driving around in GSRs, Type Rs, and Hybrids saying "I'd like to race but I can't afford it."
Bullshit. Yes you can.
Hotels, gas, and entry fees (unless you're instructing of course) are no different in racing. The kickers are the tow vehicle (which don't make bad daily commuters... I love my Tundrallac) and higher potential for crash damage (which is yet another reason ITC looks good financially).
For example: Renee spent 2.5 years competing nationally with Heath McMillan in his CSP CRX. She had a great time, but when we sat down and worked out the numbers she realized that she could race W2W in my car for about the exact same money per year she was spending to autocross. Granted, they had a serious autocross schedule, but given the choice and the realities of the numbers her response was "why the hell am I autocrossing?"
What I'm saying is that one can build a nice ITC car for what they might spend on a suspensioned and mildly tweeked track ***** (say a 3rd gen GSR) or a competitive Street Prep car.
Sure, I can do a regional G Stock Neon for alot less than an ITC car, but thats not apples to apples.
What I was referring to was guys driving around in GSRs, Type Rs, and Hybrids saying "I'd like to race but I can't afford it."
Bullshit. Yes you can.
Hotels, gas, and entry fees (unless you're instructing of course) are no different in racing. The kickers are the tow vehicle (which don't make bad daily commuters... I love my Tundrallac) and higher potential for crash damage (which is yet another reason ITC looks good financially).
For example: Renee spent 2.5 years competing nationally with Heath McMillan in his CSP CRX. She had a great time, but when we sat down and worked out the numbers she realized that she could race W2W in my car for about the exact same money per year she was spending to autocross. Granted, they had a serious autocross schedule, but given the choice and the realities of the numbers her response was "why the hell am I autocrossing?"
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From: ct, usa
As for a truck and trailer...again, want versus need. Yes, it is possible to drive the car to the track. I did. Do you want to and are there advantages of getting a tow vehicle? Of course.
Stay as local as possible for a while. If it breaks down / crashes, then figure a way to get it home. Get AAA on the car, rent a pick-up to tow it with and borrow (or rent) a trailer. Many dealerships rent pick-ups for a reasonable price. Only $40 per day with a good milage allowance. I looked into it before I bought my Tundra (like Scott, I love it!!). I sold my sports car to get the truck and don't regret it at all. The guy who owned it before me put a TRD header, Bassani dual exhaust, TRD air intake, rear sway bar...it is a blast to drive. So, just because you use a tow vehicle for your everyday vehicle doesn't mean it can't be fun.
Buy a tow dolly. I've been using one because my previous "tow vehicle" (a 4 cyl. Jeep Wrangler) couldn't handle anything heavier. The tow dolly is light (500 lbs) and inexpensive ($500). Many, many vehicles can tow 3,000 lbs.
Also, the racing community is a pretty tight nit group. People are always willing to help each other. It truely is amazing!
Like Scott said, there are many misconceptions and excuses being made of why people "can't" road race.
Stay as local as possible for a while. If it breaks down / crashes, then figure a way to get it home. Get AAA on the car, rent a pick-up to tow it with and borrow (or rent) a trailer. Many dealerships rent pick-ups for a reasonable price. Only $40 per day with a good milage allowance. I looked into it before I bought my Tundra (like Scott, I love it!!). I sold my sports car to get the truck and don't regret it at all. The guy who owned it before me put a TRD header, Bassani dual exhaust, TRD air intake, rear sway bar...it is a blast to drive. So, just because you use a tow vehicle for your everyday vehicle doesn't mean it can't be fun.
Buy a tow dolly. I've been using one because my previous "tow vehicle" (a 4 cyl. Jeep Wrangler) couldn't handle anything heavier. The tow dolly is light (500 lbs) and inexpensive ($500). Many, many vehicles can tow 3,000 lbs.
Also, the racing community is a pretty tight nit group. People are always willing to help each other. It truely is amazing!
Like Scott said, there are many misconceptions and excuses being made of why people "can't" road race.
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From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: (granracing)
I *think* Scott was distinguishing for the folks that say "I can't afford to race my Type R" that albeit that may be true, they could easily race something else for the same money they spend on their car (i.e. Type R) to do HPDE. I would bet my tally for open tracking my 944S vs. racing my CRX is about even year over year. The 944 didn't go through brakes, I ran cheap Yoko A032Rs (and very few of them), there were no entry fees when I instructed, often times I shared a room with one or two other instructors -- still, the cost of doing the water pump on that car one time is 4 Hoosiers on my CRX. The cost of one set of wheels for that car is the same as a new Zdyne unit. The cost of coilovers for that car was 80% of the way to my new race motor in the CRX. Spent clutch cost me as much as two racing seats. Is this a bad example? Yeah, probably. A 944S isn't cheap for parts and some items are unique to that car - but its not too far off I'd bet to some cars (although it might be different zurks that cost the cash).
Point I thought he was making was that you can pick up a race car on the cheap, alot of the parts expense someone else went through you pay 40 cents on the dollar. A lot of the sorting for some cars (Honda, VW, Acura) are out there, you just have to talk to the right folks so you aren't spinning your wheels so to speak at your own expense. And at the end of the day, its cheaper to find motors, trannies, pads, rotors, wheels, tires, etc ... for cars that the current state of teenaged-USA doesn't want.
Gran, I do hear what you say about driving to the track and I understand you. I would also say as someone apt to be a helpful person (re: your last comment), helping someone home w/ a heap once, that's on me, helping them twice, that's on you. I'd think you get one realistic shot at that before people are going to feel you are taking them for granted. If I've misunderstood you, apologies.
AR
Point I thought he was making was that you can pick up a race car on the cheap, alot of the parts expense someone else went through you pay 40 cents on the dollar. A lot of the sorting for some cars (Honda, VW, Acura) are out there, you just have to talk to the right folks so you aren't spinning your wheels so to speak at your own expense. And at the end of the day, its cheaper to find motors, trannies, pads, rotors, wheels, tires, etc ... for cars that the current state of teenaged-USA doesn't want.
Gran, I do hear what you say about driving to the track and I understand you. I would also say as someone apt to be a helpful person (re: your last comment), helping someone home w/ a heap once, that's on me, helping them twice, that's on you. I'd think you get one realistic shot at that before people are going to feel you are taking them for granted. If I've misunderstood you, apologies.
AR
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: (phat-S)
Exactly Adam.
As I mentioned in my first post it is very often a case of "I can't afford to race what I WANT to race." Not "I can't afford to race."
But trust me, if you're a competitive person (and if you're not, just stick with HPDE and don't race, seriously) once you get out there it won't matter if you're in a TypeR or a carbed 1985 Civic. Racing is racing, and as I've discovered racing a beater 70hp Civic beats the crap out of HPDEing a pimpy Integra (but thats me, maybe you are different <shrug>.
So if you really, truly want to race, figure out your budget and buy/build a car that fits within it. Don't keep sinking money in a TypeR or 944S or Hybrid for HPDE thinking that you might as well do this because you can't afford to race. Thats a myth.
And as mentioned in other threads many times, you don't NEED a front running car, especially when you are just starting out. My car was built to win the ARRC and thus has had no expense or effort spared. And while I'd guarantee that it still cost less than what some folks have in their HPDE or autocross rides, you can build one even cheaper than what I've got in mine, still find someone to race with, and still have a blast.
One of the best races I've ever had was for 3rd place. I had a blast. Would I have rather been racing for first? sure, but a race is a race. Hell, Phatty and Bowie had an absolute throwdown for 5th place at the ARRC. Good stuff.
Again, you can put a nice, reliable ITB or ITC car on track for less than $10k. Travel, entry fees, hotels, and such aren't going to cost any more than HPDE or Divisional/National Autocrossing.
Our friend Ivan Orndorf decided to ditch autocross and go racing after simply doing a cost-benefit analysis. He compared a Divisional AutoX weekend to a single RR weekend and discovered that travel and hotel expenses were a wash. It was the dollar per minute and time invested for seat time that made the decision for him...
Divisional AutoX:
Seat Time - 5 minutes
Entry Fee - $60
Dollars per minute seat time - $12
Time Investment - 48 hours (one weekend) for 5 minutes (.017% of time invested spent in the seat)
Single Road Race:
Seat Time - 60 minutes
Entry Fee - $150
Dollars per minute seat time - $2.50
Time Investment - 48 hours for 60 minutes (2.1%)
As I mentioned in my first post it is very often a case of "I can't afford to race what I WANT to race." Not "I can't afford to race."
But trust me, if you're a competitive person (and if you're not, just stick with HPDE and don't race, seriously) once you get out there it won't matter if you're in a TypeR or a carbed 1985 Civic. Racing is racing, and as I've discovered racing a beater 70hp Civic beats the crap out of HPDEing a pimpy Integra (but thats me, maybe you are different <shrug>
.So if you really, truly want to race, figure out your budget and buy/build a car that fits within it. Don't keep sinking money in a TypeR or 944S or Hybrid for HPDE thinking that you might as well do this because you can't afford to race. Thats a myth.
And as mentioned in other threads many times, you don't NEED a front running car, especially when you are just starting out. My car was built to win the ARRC and thus has had no expense or effort spared. And while I'd guarantee that it still cost less than what some folks have in their HPDE or autocross rides, you can build one even cheaper than what I've got in mine, still find someone to race with, and still have a blast.
One of the best races I've ever had was for 3rd place. I had a blast. Would I have rather been racing for first? sure, but a race is a race. Hell, Phatty and Bowie had an absolute throwdown for 5th place at the ARRC. Good stuff.
Again, you can put a nice, reliable ITB or ITC car on track for less than $10k. Travel, entry fees, hotels, and such aren't going to cost any more than HPDE or Divisional/National Autocrossing.
Our friend Ivan Orndorf decided to ditch autocross and go racing after simply doing a cost-benefit analysis. He compared a Divisional AutoX weekend to a single RR weekend and discovered that travel and hotel expenses were a wash. It was the dollar per minute and time invested for seat time that made the decision for him...
Divisional AutoX:
Seat Time - 5 minutes
Entry Fee - $60
Dollars per minute seat time - $12
Time Investment - 48 hours (one weekend) for 5 minutes (.017% of time invested spent in the seat)
Single Road Race:
Seat Time - 60 minutes
Entry Fee - $150
Dollars per minute seat time - $2.50
Time Investment - 48 hours for 60 minutes (2.1%)
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Re: (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For example: Renee spent 2.5 years competing nationally with Heath McMillan in his CSP CRX. She had a great time, but when we sat down and worked out the numbers she realized that she could race W2W in my car for about the exact same money per year she was spending to autocross. Granted, they had a serious autocross schedule, but given the choice and the realities of the numbers her response was "why the hell am I autocrossing?"
</TD></TR></TABLE>
so is renee going to be driving civic with you next season?
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so is renee going to be driving civic with you next season?