jimbob

Hi guys/girls... I just wanted to know if you were to make your Hondas FI, which route would you go and WHY? Personally, I'm leaning towards supercharging because immediate power is more important to me than ultimate power. I do a great deal more track time than drag racing.

Hooch'n

I haven't heard anything good about Supercharging a ITR engine. Turbo . Personally I love N/A.

Striker

For ITR, I prefer N/A. The compression ratio is to high to turbo charge it as it is, so you'd have to do a bunch of work. The Jackson Racing SC has had some problems w/ the R's, but other Hondas I think are ok. If it's not an ITR though, I'd go turbo. zoom zoom, heh

jimbob

Compression is indeed a little high to turbo or SC it. NA is nice, but you won't really get much more than 200hp at the wheels and it cost an arm and a leg. Not to mention reliability problems revving that high...

I'm not necessarily talking about an ITR engine, but Hondas in general. I wouldn't TC or SC an ITR engine myself and would probably build a B20 SC and either put the B18C5 aside or sell it. My main question is WHY do you think TC is better than SC.

8400: Haven't heard good things about Supercharger? I wouldn't quite agree on that. I've heard of many stories SCing that were sucessful and much more reliable than TCing. Also there's a LOT less tuning involved with SC.

TypeR0207

Yea, but that doesn't hold true for the SC for the R, you still need to do quite a bit of tuning to get the "advertised" 210 whp from it. Usually people get about 190 or so, a fairly easily attainable all motor number for around the same amount of money .....

Striker

From what I've seen, you can get more power from a turbo charger on Hondas than an SC. That's why I like the TC better. Now, the only SC I'm comparing other TC's to is the JRSC, so if you know a better SC for Hondas then by all means let me know, heh. Another reason I like the TC better is that it's not always on, you can tune it to kick it at a certain rpm, which I'm not sure you can do with an SC. I believe with an SC it's always on since it's running off your engine. But by all means enlighten me if you have more info

hybrid_eg

some advice for you jimbob.. from personal experience. Btw, this is just my opinion so please try not to flame.

I used to own a 93 cx with jdm spec itr motor (had to sell it, dont ask why, just had to) anyhow, all i had on it was a test pipe, jdm itr piping, with trust muffler, a clutch and a gutted car.. that car boned the fawk out! and it was basically in a stock form and very reliable. With some mild NA mods you will easily run low 13's and mid to high 12 on slicks.

Now that i have an integra, i dont really want to go NA just beacuse of the weight difference.. and i think going FI would be a much easier way for me to get back to my hatchbacks speed because thats the one thing i miss driving every damn day!

jimbob

Yep, you can potentially get considerable more power from a TC. It's also more efficient since it runs on spent exhaust. JRSC is one example of an Eaton SC. Simple, extremely reliable and works rather well (maybe not in an ITR because of compression) and doesn't require too much tuning. Check out the Vortec SC, it's a Roots type SC. Someone adapted it for the ITR. I can't remember who on this board, but I think he made insane HP.

I believe what you're refering to is turbo lag. For most people, that's a bad thing, including myself. It may be good for drag racing where our FWD traction may be limited, but for the track, you want smooth power delivery, good torque and a flatter torque curve that TCs can't provide. Small turbos will spool up faster, but don't make as much HP.

THIS is the main reason why I like SC's.

DC2R

I love NA, thats why I buy a ITR...

jimbob

You'll get no flame from me... I'm just curious to know about what people think about SCing and TCing.

A B18C ITR spec + EK, EG, EF body is really nice. They work really well together. I've driven quite a few and I know how fast they can be. You don't really need many mods to go rather fast. Light weight really makes a HUGE difference. To have the power/weight ratio to be able to achieve 12/13's in the 1/4 mile in a DC2 takes a little more help. You're right... I think FI is the way to go. You'll spend about as much as if not less than a 200hp NA setup and of course make more power and get a little torque in our otherwise torqueless go karts.

CheezeFrog

I agree that compression is a little high for forced induction, but with the right engine management and tuning, there's TONS of power to be made without so much as removing the valve cover. st00pid ran 10.9 @ 133mph with a turbo'd stock B18C (in a Civic hatch) with absolutely no engine work at all, with stock compression and full interior. It's all in the tuning!


[Modified by CheezeFrog, 11:57 AM 9/10/2001]

itr501

which one would work the engine more? TC, SC, or NA? I'm talking about equal amount of power gain in each category.

SpoonCivic

well n/a the most u could get is like 205whp-210whp (streetable) for turbo that is nothing. thats like a greddy kit at 4-5lbs of boost, which would put hardly any work on the engine.

jimbob

NA I believe would work the engine the most. To get 200-210 WHP, you have to rev higher than stock, make tolerances closer than stock, push most parts to its limits... It's the only way to get 200+whp.

I'm staying NA because I like NA, but if you're looking for over 200whp from B18s or B16s, that's your only way to get that power reliably.

hybrid_eg

hey spooncivic.. i'll probably be doing the same set up that you have right now in your hatch.. but in an integra body.. i'm sure it will not be nearly as fast as an EK but should hang with mostly NA moded tegs.. the way i see it.. in order to pull 210whp NA i'll spend them same amount of money and turbo it.. i know its not a great idea at all do it on high compression motor and etc.. but i always wanted a damn turbo honda.. so we'll see how it turns out.. since i'll say at low boost i dont think i'll face any major problems.

ITR607

JIMBOB

i have sc itr and really enjoy driving it. it has good power and i still get good gas mileage im not going to tell you that sc is right or wrong for you just my experience.
my itr has been sc for 25000 miles and has had a few problems not bad ones ive heard of other issues with sc and turbo, if you know what you want to do with the car drag autox then that will help your decision i would say turbo if you want to drag i say n/a and sc are good for autox. as long as the car is tuned right then you should not have that many problems. if i had to do it all over again i still would stick
with the sc.

AzianAvenger

I would go with turbo.

I raced a 2000 ITR with a supercharger in it a 1 1/2 month ago. It was quite a fun race actually. Anyways we started at 55mph and went up to...well I stopped at 130mph but he kept going to 140mph or something crazy like that.

I drive a turbo GSR btw. Anyways the Supercharged ITR kinda cheated and started the race 2 cars ahead of me and I had to down shift 5th to 4th to catch him. I am only doing 6 pounds of boost on my DRAG Gen 3 kit btw. Anyways the supercharge ITR pulled ahead and kept the 2 car lead until about 85 mph. It was game over after 85mph. I pulled next to him at like 92-93mph and then slowly passed him up till I was 3 cars in front of him and kept going. Eventually I had a total of 5+ car lengths on him at 115mph. And then I stopped pulling or atleast I think I did. It could be more car lengths! I had to concentrate on the driving couldn't look after 115mph. However I glanced at his headlights thru the rear mirror and was surprised that he kept up with me. After I won, I slowed down to give him props but he just took off like a bat out of hell. He seemed pissed, oh well!

Morale of the story is if you are a light to light racer and don't want to spend to much and have a daily driven setup, go with a supercharger. If you want to feel raw power and have the ability to waste V8s on the top end then go with a turbocharger. I've been in two hondas that were supercharged and was not impressed by it. IT didn't give me the neck snapping feeling like turbo does but a supercharger is probably more street friendly. However all it takes is driver practice and skill to master a turbo honda.

Either way you go, it is a vast improvement over your stock ITR!

Welcome to the darkside of the force(induction)



-AzianAvenger

Random.Hero

Turbo turbo turbo!!!

jimbob

I don't really drag race much nor do I want to setup a car for that purpose. I do mostly track events and maybe some autox and Solo I. I know for a fact that I can potentially get the most power out of a TC. But I still think that for circuit driving, an SC or NA is the way to go.

If I get a TC, I could get around 300+whp without too many problems (i think), but it also means that the lag would actually come into play during an autox.

It seems that many people are favoring the TC more than an SC. I just want to know why... As far as those that are in favor of TC's, is the only advantage power?

SoCal ITR

Wow, I'm learning a lot from this post....... Thanks all, and good questions Jimbob.

AzianAvenger

I personally think the ITRs are a good setup for turbo. My friend had ripped up the 60 foot times with his turbo setup in his ITR. He hacked up a Greddy turbo kit for a GSR and was one the first people in the midwest to turbo a 2000 ITR. HE had like 3000 miles on it when he did it! hehehe

Anyways the ITR has already a mild port/polish intake, bigger throttle body, a full girdle for bottom end protection, mild forged pistons (better internals), and a better head. The ITR's exhaust cam helps a lot also! The shorter gear ratio may kill your top end but if a pesky 4.6L or 5.7L wants a piece of you, then he will be in for a little surprise. Think of rally cars with their shorter gear turbo setups...all acceleration baby. Also Ask the ITR turbo owners and see what they are dynoing! It is totally unbelieveable. I've seen 276 whp as the norm for these guys with a little tuning in their drag and custom kits. All you need is the correct fuel/timing delivery and you are off to a happy turbo honda life.

A lot of guys who drag race are using high compression these days. I think 10.6:1 is cutting it close for the average joe but if you tune it right, you will make gobs of power and kill any 9:1 or lower compression hondas out there. The reason is while the lower copmression turbo hondas lag nasty, you still have your 160whp to the wheels in stock form!

Well go with turbo. I think the maintenace is easier. The supercharger's belts wear out quickily and from what I've seen it is a pain in the *** to change. Also a turbo setup is more upgrade friendly just incase 10 pounds of boost ain't enough! hehehe

I'm telling you, driving a turbo GSR at 140+ mph is like piloting a jet. You really don't know how fast you are going unless you look down at the instrument panel.
I am in no way of advocating my reckless driving but to hear the sound of your exhaust change it's tune to a low throbbing sound (kinda like being in a B-17 bomber) and the spooling of the turbo at 7800rpms in 5 th gear is like no other.

Anyways...

One last thing, don't you get tired of ****** SVT cobra mustangs smoking you when you know you are a better than them. They put down a bus load of torque and think that peeling out makes them go faster. Make them think twice when your 2600pound car is putting out as much power as them, out handles them, and out classes them in every category! And then roll your window at the next light and explain that they just lost to a 1.8 Liter I-4!!! BAWHAAHAHHAAHHA

Sorry I couldn't resist taking a trip down memory lane.

When I was doing 11+ pounds of boost, I basically was smoking a lot of ***** on the streets and highways....especially when it is highways....it is all about horsepower and not torque!! And this is all on the stock clutch and stock internals!!


AzianAvenger


On the side note, there is a lot of maintenance with turbo setups.

(1) Change sparkplugs every month/month and half
(2) Change synthetic oil frequently
(3) Go with Redline Water wetter cuz the turbo will make your engine hot
Radiator flushes have to be done once a year. Not a big deal.
(4) Warm up time is like 5+ minutes. Cool down time is like 30 seconds - 2 minutes
(5) Nasty wear and tear on engine..hehehe save up money just incase crap happens (not really maintenance, just a thought)


Blah,blah,blah.... you will learn more about turbos and cars than you ever wanted after owning a turbo honda!

austrian type-R

Do it, but doi it right at first time. Learn from our experience. Donīt go FI without a standalone when you want most power, most driveabiltly and most safety. Heck, with a standalone ECU the car reacts like it comes from factory with turbo or supercharger.

Go to my 1st link in the sign for the most informative JRSCīed ITR site. The JRSC stock kit realy sucks on the R and you donīt get much more above 185whp out (depends on tuning, tuning is always the key) the reason is that the a/f mixture is way too rich on the top end (more infos on the link, please)

It doesnīt matter if you TC or SC your car, you will always have problems, cause N/A engines areīnt built for boost. You have to tune out bugs on the wide band O2 dyno. To reach 300+ hp in an R you must lower your compression ratio to about 9.5:1 or 9.0:1, then boost 10-14psi and you are GOD and you kick V8 azz up & down, left to right and all night and all day long + you hit easilythe klow 12īs or even 11īs in the quarter mile racing.

I can post easily 5 sites how to boost your car, but the most important thing is do it right and buy to your SC kit or Turbo kit a standalone system. I talk form experience cause I know you will buy this thing than that thing, til you get many things to make your car run better. OR you can buy for the same money a standalone.

PS: Donīt care about people who say the cr is too high. I mean HECK, we all know there are many boosted ITRīs outside whole over the world. It depends on tuning, not boost or CR kills the engine, it is the knocking and pre-ignition. With good tuning you can boost 7psi on a stock ITR engine.

JRSC kit with 5.5psi and all the bolt onīs (I/H/E, etc.) and standalone: about 220whp
DRAG 3 kit with 7psi and all the bolt onīs + standalone: about 260whp

The cost are about 4500 USD for a realy good setup. It sounds high at your first look, but when you make changes to your engines it is like drugs, you canīt stop screwing on your car. So like I said, do it right and careful.

PS: I make for now 193.5 whp with my heavy azz 17 inchers and 225/35 rubber. Stock I had only 151.5whp and I live 750 meters above sea-level and our European hp are not equal to the USA hp. USA SAE hp are a bit more than our DIN measured Euro hp. ......well all I want to say is, near sea-level with the stock tire setup and SAE hp measure I think Iīm arround 205-210 whp.

My standalone engine management goes in, while my car has its winter-sleep. Iīm deciding between Haltech E6k and Hondata stage 4.

Sam

I prefer N/A for ITR, but if I have to make a choice, I will pick turbo, it is more flexible to play around.

jimbob

Hey, nice hearing a nice complete explanation from you. High CR turbo setups are indeed possible at high boost, but there's a lot of tuning involved and usually requires better gas than is commonly available.

You just kinda contradicted yourself a little You mentioned that you think there is less maintenance in TCs, but down below, you mentioned that TC's require a lot of maintenance. hehe... NOT a flame BTW!

Well... I think this is very subjective. I like ALL fast cars. I don't really think I'm better than they are, but just that I chose a car that I like and suits my needs. I still feel there is no replacement for displacement. Some have argued VTEC, but it's not a valid claim. You can't make the torque a large displacement engine can.

I'm not really a street racer by any means, but that doesn't mean I haven't had my high speed bouts here and there! I still think FWD is just a stepping stone to something better (RWD). I love my Honda, but I wouldn't think twice if I could afford a Corvette Z06 and ourhandle every ITR, out accelerate most ITRS and run faster lap times than EVERY ITR out there. I'm a more of a circuit racing guy, so allround performance and reliability is REALLY important to me. I think the Z06 qualifies... In some tests, it performs better in every category to a 993 TT! That says a lot for any car let alone one that cost less than half the amount a 993TT costs.

If you can't beat em, join em, but join em with something even better!

Black R

also please note that boosted cars are slower than na cars for the same amount of whp... I dunno why - maybe something about the linear nature of delivery, etc... Or maybe the extra weight of the sc... Or maybe too much torque = wheel spin...