Ive been to a couple of track events and cant figure out how (for those who said they dont heeltoe) get around the corners fast.

My limited experience at the track says that you need to heel toe to get around the corners fast.

 

Before the big boys show up, I'll throw in my 2 cents. I'd say the fastest way around the track is not thinking what is the fastest way around the track. I am oft times prone to overthinking and at least in this area, I let my feet do what they feel they need to (basically if my foot is there I don't hinder it, if not I don't think about it) - if that is heel-toe or double clutching or left foot braking. I'd say that if your foot naturally tries to find the gas then let it and if it doesn't don't make it.

I am sure I suffer from inconsistency with my approach but I think the only time I botch a shift or brake zone is when I am thinking about it.

 

I've been practicing throttle-blipping (i'd call it heel-toe, but i use ball and edge of foot) all through the autocross season, and when we went to Nelson Ledges for our first track day i was kinda surprised how easy it was in the higher gears compared to rev-matching first at an autocross. Once the motion is second nature, it's just another part of driving, like putting the clutch in, and it really felt like the only way to do it at the track. braking from 110 to 40 MPH in two turns, with a few short bursts of acceleration, i can't imagine having done it at all without bringing up the revs on each downshift....

 

RacerJon: I just started hanging out on the Evolution-discussion elist and the very technique you're talking about is used by many Solo II champs as well. For a rookie like me this technique sounds sensible, but would probably be harder the heck to do -- getting the proper timing for all the hand & foot work would be key. I don't think I'll be trying it any time soon 'cause it would mess me up big time!

 

I would have to agree with everything everyone has already said. Phat-S is right, if you think about what you are doing too much, you're either going to over shoot or under shoot the turn. Heel-n-Toe is not for everyone. Do what you feel comfortable with. RacerJon is right also, A LOT of National Level drivers don't heel-n-toe. Most of the heel-n-toe drivers have to do it, as in GT-1 thru GT-5 because of the trannys they use. I can think of a couple turns at VIR (Full) that it is helpful in, but not necessary. Practice on the street if you really want to learn. Good luck.

 

Someone observed that it seems easier to heel-toe smoothly at high engine speeds, and I tend to agree. My first instructor ever told me the same thing - the car will buck and shake less if you're 500 RPM off at high speed (and under severe braking) than it will in around-town driving.

For heel-toe to be an effective tool on the racetrack, heel-toe downshifting has to be "second nature." You have to practice it on the street, in every "Braking Zone," until you have to plan to NOT do it. I heel-toe every downshift I ever do, and have driven this way since 1996.

Whatever you're approach to gear selection in a braking zone, it needs to be something you don't have to think about. I can't tell you how many students I've had who, when they alter their "habit" (whichever habit they use), the smoothness of their approach to the corner goes downhill.

Heel toe is a useful tool, is nice and smooth, and can conserve your equipment - but there's plenty of REALLY fast drivers on this board that don't bother to heel toe at all - RoadRacer and o-man among them. Doesn't seem to slow them down any.

(Edit again: forgot to finish a sentence...)

[Modified by krshultz, 10:59 AM 8/29/2001]


[Modified by krshultz, 3:11 PM 8/29/2001]

 

What these guys said.

I would say go with what's comfortable for you. I suppose in theory heel-toe shifting should help save wear and tear on transmission parts since you're matching revs for downshifts. That's pretty much why I started doing this. Plus it sounds cool

Matt

 

I would say that the skill, technique, and practice required for NOT heel-and-toeing while maintaining precision, balance, control, and good laptimes is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than the skill, technique and practice to achieve the same thing with heel & toe.

Short story - learning and becoming good at heel & toe makes it much easier to become a fast, consistent driver. Right?

I watch my wife get frustrated all the time at autocrosses that require a 2-3 shift. She's terrified of the downshift. OK, maybe not terrified, but since she hasn't got the hang of heel & toe, she knows that the downshift after braking while turning in could upset the car or her rhythm. Heel & toe definintely helps with rhythm. Gets stuff (shifting) out of the way early so you have less distraction for important part (turning).

Heel and toe for every turn, light, and stopsign on the street for 6 months and it becomes a no-brainer, at autocross or track. That's what most of us have done

Adam -- about concentrating on your inputs: I agree 100% that when you're driving, it's all Zen. I also agree 100% that if I think about what my hand or foot is doing, I **** up. But I believe 100% in extensive planning about what to do. "Don't lift in 10 don't lift in 10 don't lift in 10" while in grid. Or "turn in smoother for 1" while going to sleep between days. The mantra will sink in and your body will respond properly, without any concentration.

This technique becomes especially important for walking autocross courses. That's where I learned it. Your conscious brain must convince the other part of the brain that controls your hands and feet to do what it needs to do.

Whew! I talk too much!

Mike

 

I think the difference in time for those who don't heel-toe is made up under braking...since their right foot is only performing one operation, it can do so with much more accuracy and precision than if they had to concentrate on two actions (brake and throttle). I find in my driving that there is a lot of technique to how you apply the brake, particularly at the very beginning and end of the braking zone. I have yet to figure out what works best in our cars.

I heel-toe every downshift because it "feels right" to me. I have done the same on the street for the last few years so that I am comfortable with the shift points and pedal location in each of our cars. The transition time between brake and gas bothers me if I have to shift there, but I conciously know that I'm not braking to 100% when I do heel-toe. How much I'm losing I do not know.

 

Great posts! Most of you mentioned that if heel and toe requires additional thinking to carry it out, it will only hurt you. This is absolutely true.

In general, RWD drivers are more prone to using heel and toe. This is because in a braking zone if you accidentally rush a downshift, it might cause the rear tires to lock up (size you are already at the limit of braking). Locking up rear tires may cause a spin. FWD do not have this problem, so heel and toe is not essential.

That's why, as all of you have said, there are a lot of great drivers out there who don't heel and toe. Tom Fowler is one of them. But then again, there are also great drivers who do. But keep in mind, heel and toe is not what makes someone fast!

At the autox, I always find it better to match the revs in a downshift since going to 1st gear can be quite rough and can upset the car otherwise. While on the track with the CRX, sometimes I do sometimes I don't. When I don't it's because it didn't come natural those times and I'm not going to force it by thinking about it. A small tip I picked up (from a great non-heal&toe driver I mentioned) for longer enduro races: Not heel and toeing actually helps out the brakes. The extra little bit of braking that you do with the clutch when not matching revs will add up turn after turn and lap after lap and will give you slightly better brakes towards the end of the race.

 

It's very hard to heel-toe in my '90 integra GS, the gas pedal is about 1" farther back than the brake pedal and there is enough room to rest your foot between the brake and gas pedal. Anyone else have this problem with their '90 GS? Maybe if I had smaller feet I could twist my foot sideways, but as it is I haven found a good way to heel-toe in the '90 GS. My Toyotoa Tacoma on the other hand is setup perfect for heel-toe manuvering, go figure that! Maybe I should swap the pedals between the Acura and Toyota...lol


[Modified by Vracer111, 9:37 AM 8/29/2001]

 

I have to agree with what most people have said. Do what is most natural for you. The racetrack is not the place to learn a new technique. You can practice, test, or perfect something on track, but learn it on the street or AutoX course first.

Now as for heal-and-toe. I do it .. and I think it makes things much smoother. As other people have pointed out, it is not a requirement for going fast. If you decide you want to try it here is how I learned.

It is hard to learn on the street while breaking for a turn becuase there are lots of things to watch out for, like soccer mom's in Excursions. But mostly because heal-and-toe is best under full braking. The light breaking we do on the street makes it much harder. Best way I have found to practice is when comming to a stop for red lights, stop signs, slow SUVs, etc. Make sure there is no1 behind you and use a little more brake then you would normally for street. Then heal-and-toe down shift into every gear down to 1st. Once you can do that while keeping a steady breaking force and not hopping the car around like mad, you have learned to heal and toe. Then try it for turns, etc. Once you can do it relativly well, try it on track and see if you like it.

 

I think all G2s have that problem

 

As far as the pedal thing goes, I've seen anything from a block of wood, to micro-foam sleets zip-tied to the gas pedal to help bring it closer. The micro-foam wrapped around the pedal looked pretty helpful actually.

FWIW, Heel-n-toe feels natural to me. On the track, I can't see myself braking and downshifting without it.

 

Bend the metal shaft attached to the gas pedal towards the brake. Works like a champ on G3 cars, I know that much.

 

Well, well, well! And we all finally get to find out the real reason that Karl handed me my *** at the April Time Trial at VIR-South! He's a cheater!

I quote from the Street Prepared rules: Accelerator, brake, and clutch pedals may utilize substitute covers of unrestricted origin, shape, and size, provided they meet the following requirements: Covers must be securely attached, provide a non-slip surface, not interfere with each other's operation, and must be deemed safe at Tech Inspection. "

Well, if you kick my *** in November at Kershaw, we'll all know the real reason: A Bent Gas Pedal. Please understand that when I say "Karl is a Bastard" I mean it in the nicest possible way

Mike <-- with a slow-assed BMW that can't keep up with these guys in the Hondas

 

I've spent a lot of time driving around town, practicing the technique. I think somebody said a plate bolted to your gas pedal can help too.

Funny thing is, after all the working on it and thinking about it... when I'm in competition and in a heel/toe situation, I always end up cramming it into gear and letting the poor synchros deal with it.

 

LOL! This really cracks me up b/c it's so true. I can't tell you how many times, in the heat of an autocross battle, I've ground up a lot of my synchros and gears trying to heal/toe, usually from 2nd to 1st gear in a very tight part of the course, mostly b/c I'm shoving the car into a gear without having pushed the clutch all the way back down to the floor yet Must give the course worker a good laugh, though.

 

fsp31...are you referring to trying to double clutch? That's the only thing that would help your syncros. Plain old heel-toeing (single clutch action) matches revs, and helps your clutch wear...but the syncros still have work to do.

My first instructor told me to not bother double clutching a car with a syncromesh transmission (like all our cars have). I don't even double clutch the 2 -> 1 shift at autocrosses. Syncros seem to be holding up at 123K miles.

 

Naw, nothing that complicated. ;-)

I'm talking about coming into a tight 180, braking hard to about 38mph (or slightly above wherever red-line is in 1st), pushing in the clutch *while* forcefully jamming it into 1st, then letting the clutch pedal sort of slip off my foot so it re-engages "rapidly". I know it's a horrible thing to do to my entire drivetrain, not to mention bad for times, but every now and then I get this overpowering urge...

co-drive anyone?

 

I don't heel/toe. I can't. Old sports injuries to the right knee and right ankle ended any thought of effectively heel / toe driving.

So... I do exactly as Jon described wayyyy above. It's kind of like rev matching as the revs fall... if that makes sense.

Alex is right about heel/toe in RWD cars. I have a friend with a CSP RX-7 who is constantly snap spinning the thing under braking because he briefly locks up the lightened rear wheels. Blip... around she goes with no way to catch it. Not a problem in a FWD car. My weight distribution is probably 80/20 under braking (or more).

That said, some guys like Shultz get around much smoother by heel /toeing. Sometimes you can't even feel the bastard downshift (like whitney, I call him a bastard in the most affectionate way).

Personal preference in a FWD. If you can't do it, don't worry about it.
If Fowler doesn't do it, it can't be a necessity.

 

I heel/toe downshift a lot at the track -but not all the time. I think if you do heel/toe downshift there are three important things to do:
1) proper driving position
2) proper (thin soled) driving shoes
3) proper pedals

The worst thing on Hondas is the pedal width. For most people the brake and go pedals are too widely spaced. I recommend changing the pedal covers to something like OMPs pedals

 

Those pedals look nice! Where can I get em' and how much!

Your R, too! Is theere a JDM front end comin' in the future!

 

JDM fronts are not for me. Why would I want my car to look like a G2? Bleah. All that expense for no performance.....you get the picture

For OMP stuff:

east coast http://www.ompusa.com
west coast http://www.ompwins.com or call 604 298 5575 and ask for Frank. He can send you a catalog for free.

The Italian (home) site of OMP is http://www.ompracing.it

 

Damn man, stop thinking so much. when i race or "drive" i do all kinda of techniques but they are not predetermined, they come about from instinctive responces.. kinda what the guy said at the top... thing too much and you'll miss on of those shifts and you'll be screwed...