i plan to lower my car 1.5" from stock, and am questioning whether or not i should bother with a camber kit. ive heard that as long as you get your car aligned and get the toe set to 0, your tires will not wear out fast and a camber kit is unnecessary. is this true? also, would the handling of the car improve w/ a camber kit? finally, has anyone had problems using the washer trick in the rear?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jwn7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i plan to lower my car 1.5" from stock

also, would the handling of the car improve w/ a camber kit?

finally, has anyone had problems using the washer trick in the rear?</TD></TR></TABLE>

with a 1.5 drop a camber kit is not neccesary

the handeling of the car would improve when cornering w/o a camber kit. a 1.5 inch drop gives you a GOOD amount of camber

and no problems with the washer trick

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jwn7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i plan to lower my car 1.5" from stock, and am questioning whether or not i should bother with a camber kit. ive heard that as long as you get your car aligned and get the toe set to 0, your tires will not wear out fast and a camber kit is unnecessary. is this true? also, would the handling of the car improve w/ a camber kit? finally, has anyone had problems using the washer trick in the rear?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have been preaching this for a long time now. I have a camber kit, but only because I wanted to run a specific camber. I am running -1.75 in front and -1.5 in back. Used washers in back. Skunk2 up front. Had my front toe set to ZERO, and my rear set to almost zero.

a 1.5" drop wont get you anywhere near the negative camber I have, so you shouldn't have any tire wear problems either.

 

I took mine down 2 and im not running a camber kit. I didnt get it allignes soon enough and i got chuncks taken out of my tires. i figures it was the allignment because nothing was rubbing. Plus i like to take the turns hard on a regular basis. yah i know im a sick person... or at least thats what my girl says. so far since i got the new front tires i have not had any problems and its been about 2K miles.

 

bump for more opinions. so far i think im just gonna do the washer trick in the back. how much will my handling improve w/ a front camber kit? also, what is ideal for handling - or + camber or 0?

 

For handling, negative camber without a doubt.

For a street car, anything between -1 and -2 is sufficient. If you are an avid autocrosser, track day'r, you will probably want more negative camber, but generally not to exceed -3 in the front, as well as experimenting with TOE settings away from zero depending on your driving style and ability.

Another factor for the amount of camber you need is your cars ride height and roll stiffness. Lots of factors come into play.

But for you in particular, I think a 1.5 inch drop will give your car enough negative camber without the need for a camber kit.

 

john, you said you ordered azenis's right? if you did, they LOVE negative camber. mine held the road much better when i had -2.5 degrees camber up front compared to now that i put my skunk2 camber kit on with -1 degree.

they still are good and better suited for steet driving with -1, but if i go to the track or to autoX ill be setting them back to the -3 range.

 

do camber kits reduce handliing performance?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CiViC KiD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do camber kits reduce handliing performance?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Depending on how you set your camber with the kit, you can either improve or reduce handling performance. The adjustment is what affects the handling, not the kit itself.

 

i dont know about you guys but my tires are wearing down like a b*tch in the fronts...(considering that i can place 3 of my fingers between the fenders to the tires) im going with the camber kit just to be safe.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trooper0641 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont know about you guys but my tires are wearing down like a b*tch in the fronts...(considering that i can place 3 of my fingers between the fenders to the tires) im going with the camber kit just to be safe.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you DONT need a camber kit, you need an ALIGNMENT.

Most people think camber kits fixed their tire wear problems because they got an alignment when the camber kit was installed but didn't get one when they lowered the car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trooper0641 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont know about you guys but my tires are wearing down like a b*tch in the fronts...(considering that i can place 3 of my fingers between the fenders to the tires) im going with the camber kit just to be safe.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that's why i had to break down and buy one. my tires were wearing down every 2 months or so and I don't have money to be burnin wheels up by simply daily driving. What he said above is true. It took me 2 weeks to find a local place that would align the car while it was lowered with the kit on it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tonyXcom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you DONT need a camber kit, you need an ALIGNMENT.

Most people think camber kits fixed their tire wear problems because they got an alignment when the camber kit was installed but didn't get one when they lowered the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You CAN drive around without and camber kit and you CAN get an alignment but ask any alignment tech and they will tell you that if you have lowered your car they CANNOT properly align it without the ability to adjust the camber. Lowering you car not only affects camber but also toe which is the real tire eater. When you lower you get toe out which causes lots of wear on the inside edge. These adjustments affect eachother. You cant change the toe without changing the camber and vise versa...they can use the toe to compensate for the camber wear but it will handle like ****.

You need to install the camber kit and suspension at the same time then immediately get an alignment.


Trust me the camber kit and a good alignment is definately money you wont regret spending. Or just make sure you have money to buy new front tires every couple of months, depending on how much you drive.

Also search this site and you'll find plenty of info on this topic (search words: alignment, camber kit, tire wear, etc) and plenty of people that will speak from experience and tell you to get the camber kit and not waste your tires.

 

ive got the SP kit in the front an rear..set ur camber settings for the type of driving ur most likely to do..im a commuter but occasionally like the ride thru the mtn roads.

ive got a 1.5" rear / 1.7" front s..the rear camber was i had more camber on the rear right..thats the reason for the kit in the rear

so now ive got the front camber s set at a -1.5.. and since i just drag the rear s along ive got them set at a -.05

with a neg. camber ur going to get more wear on the inner part of the tires and visa versa with a pos. camber..if the toe is *** d up..ur tire s are just going to wear bad all over..so after getting ur kits install d get a good alignment

ive also been told that with a lower d ride ur going to need an alignment more often than usuall..so i get one every each yr. regardless of the number of miles i put on the car

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by axhandler &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You CAN drive around without and camber kit and you CAN get an alignment but ask any alignment tech and they will tell you that if you have lowered your car they CANNOT properly align it without the ability to adjust the camber. Lowering you car not only affects camber but also toe which is the real tire eater. When you lower you get toe out which causes lots of wear on the inside edge. These adjustments affect eachother. You cant change the toe without changing the camber and vise versa...they can use the toe to compensate for the camber wear but it will handle like ****.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Any alignment tech that uses toe to compensate for camber is a shitty alignment tech. Camber doesn't wear out your tires, TOE DOES. Lousy alignment techs spend too much time worrying about camber. It is the TOE they need to pay more attention to. Adding more toe to decrease camber will just wear your tires out even more.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Also search this site and you'll find plenty of info on this topic (search words: alignment, camber kit, tire wear, etc) and plenty of people that will speak from experience and tell you to get the camber kit and not waste your tires.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You should also search the site. I have covered this in detail MANY MANY times.

Camber DOES NOT wear out your tires. It is TOE that wears out your tires. I won't go into detail about it again, but if you search the EG forum, you should find at least a half dozen or so detailed explanations.

Don't make me take pictures of my Azenis with about 6k miles and a dozen autocrosses on them. I have -1.75 front camber and -1.5 rear camber. For a tire that usually lasts less then 10k miles, you would be suprised at how EVEN my tires are wearing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tonyXcom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Don't make me take pictures of my Azenis with about 6k miles and a dozen autocrosses on them. I have -1.75 front camber and -1.5 rear camber. For a tire that usually lasts less then 10k miles, you would be suprised at how EVEN my tires are wearing.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I know how that madness is! I had 16 inch Toyo FZ4s and the toe out screwed my tires in like 3 weeks...and at $70 bucks mounted and balanced......****! Thats when I got my skunk2s and the ball joint was all the way out. Glad I made it till payday...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tonyXcom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Any alignment tech that uses toe to compensate for camber is a shitty alignment tech. Camber doesn't wear out your tires, TOE DOES. Lousy alignment techs spend too much time worrying about camber. It is the TOE they need to pay more attention to. Adding more toe to decrease camber will just wear your tires out even more.


You should also search the site. I have covered this in detail MANY MANY times.

Camber DOES NOT wear out your tires. It is TOE that wears out your tires. I won't go into detail about it again, but if you search the EG forum, you should find at least a half dozen or so detailed explanations.

Don't make me take pictures of my Azenis with about 6k miles and a dozen autocrosses on them. I have -1.75 front camber and -1.5 rear camber. For a tire that usually lasts less then 10k miles, you would be suprised at how EVEN my tires are wearing.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Did your read my post? I said specifically that it was the toe that is the major factor in the tire wear. I never said the camber was causing hte wear. Dont be an ***.

The only way to correct the wear without a camber kit is to provide more toe in.
Obviously this doesn't help the handling of the car in any way.l

I have read just about every alignment post on this board.

BTW...the only way to get your tires to wear that evenly with that much camber is to autocross it. Youd have to lean on it to get any wear on the outside edge.

You autocross without a proper alignment...nice.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by axhandler &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The only way to correct the wear without a camber kit is to provide more toe in.
Obviously this doesn't help the handling of the car in any way.l</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you read my post, I said that correcting camber with toe is moronic.

Just leave your camber alone. Dont worry about the reading on the alignment rack. SET YOUR TOE TO ZERO. You will not have tire wear problems unless you peel out or dragrace.

If you know that TOE is what wears out tires, then why would you say "correct the wear without a camber kit is to provide more toe in" ???

Providing more TOE in is what will wear out your tires.

And I put over 10k miles on my last set of tires before I sold them. Same exact alignment settings too. They had no uneven wear at all. I also never autocrossed on them.

 

OK...I'm not sure where the miscommunication is coming from but I'll try to summarize things for you.

Q: What happens to the alignment when you lower a car?
A: The camber turns negative and the toe becomes positive which will cause wear on the inside edge of the tire.

Q: What can you do to fix the problem?
A: Get an alignment.

Q: Why can the alignment shop get my alignment correct?
A: Because they can't adjust the camber.

Q: Why does that matter?
A: Because when you change one you change the other and without the ability to adjust them both you cannot achieve ideal angles. Period.

Lets just forget about the toe compensation thing...that is a shitty thing to do. The best thing to do is buy the ******* camber kit and do **** right the first time.

 

And let me sumarize as well.

Not everyone needs a camber kit. I will say if you have less then -2 degrees of camber then you dont need one.

Set your toe to zero, and be happy. Because, afterall, camber does not wear out your tires. TOE does. And we can adjust TOE, so dont worry about camber.

 

I will say one last thing. I lowered my car with Nuespeed Sports, that a ~1.5" drop, and the camber was not out more than 2 degrees. I had the car aligned as close to 0 toe as possible and it ate tires. I was getting about half the life that they should get. I installed the camber kit got the alignment redone and guess what...tires are wearing a lot better and the car handles a lot better.

Maybe you just don't know what your missing? Or maybe you like to half-*** things. My final word on the subject is this...and I don't think anyone is even listening except you...but here ya go.

GET THE KIT, save yourself money in the long run and enjoy greater handling from your vehicle.

 

with my 2.0+ inch drop, the camber washer trick and 40+ mm offset rotas would not work together

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by axhandler &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I will say one last thing. I lowered my car with Nuespeed Sports, that a ~1.5" drop, and the camber was not out more than 2 degrees. I had the car aligned as close to 0 toe as possible and it ate tires. I was getting about half the life that they should get. I installed the camber kit got the alignment redone and guess what...tires are wearing a lot better and the car handles a lot better.

Maybe you just don't know what your missing? Or maybe you like to half-*** things. My final word on the subject is this...and I don't think anyone is even listening except you...but here ya go.

GET THE KIT, save yourself money in the long run and enjoy greater handling from your vehicle. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe you aren't listening. I have -1.75 camber in front and ZERO TOE and -1.5 in back and ZERO TOE and
MY TIRES ARE WEARING EVEN!!!

And for the record, I HAVE A SKUNK2 FRONT CAMBER KIT. So that I could ADD as much NEGATIVE CAMBER as I wanted.

You clearly cannot comprehend what I am trying to say here, so I wont bother with you anymore. And if you cared about your vehicles handling, you would know that a lowered car NEEDS negative camber.

What you should do is return your camber kit and GET A CLUE!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tonyXcom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Maybe you aren't listening. I have -1.75 camber in front and ZERO TOE and -1.5 in back and ZERO TOE and
MY TIRES ARE WEARING EVEN!!!

And for the record, I HAVE A SKUNK2 FRONT CAMBER KIT. So that I could ADD as much NEGATIVE CAMBER as I wanted.

You clearly cannot comprehend what I am trying to say here, so I wont bother with you anymore. And if you cared about your vehicles handling, you would know that a lowered car NEEDS negative camber.

What you should do is return your camber kit and GET A CLUE!</TD></TR></TABLE>


Your the moron with the camber kit telling everone else not to get one. Every car needs negative camber...not just lowered cars. You do understand that you can't get a good alignment on a lowered car without a camber kit. Yes with a camber kit you can have whatever camber angle you want and also have 0 toe. Without the kit you cant set the toe to zero.

You think you know everything and you obviously don't. Also it seems funny after reading some of your other BS in other posts that you are the ONLY one that has the delusional alignment beliefs. Don't you think it's funny that no one else agrees with you? Maybe you should open your mind a little and try something that makes a little more sense.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by axhandler &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes with a camber kit you can have whatever camber angle you want and also have 0 toe. Without the kit you cant set the toe to zero.
.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Tell me genious. If you dont have a camber kit, why can't you adjust your toe to zero? That about sums up what your level of knowledge on alignments is. Are you really that ******* clueless?

You sound like someone that has been misinformed, like a lot of other people, from LOUSY alignment techs. But you obviously don't have enough background knowledge on suspension geometry to understand what really matters.

According to your argument, my tires should have been toast many thousand miles ago. And Guess what? They aren't.