I posted this in the Type-R forum, but I thought I'd post it here too. Scroll below the pics for the link to the video. As everybody who participates in this sport knows, there is quite a bit of risk involved, and if you continue to put your car on track, you will eventually spin or be involved in an incident. Diane is an excellent driver, (I have ridden with her), but spinning is part of pushing your car to it's limit, and it will eventually happen to everybody. Luckily there were no impacts in this incident and nobody was hurt. Thanks to Diane for being a good sport and letting me post these pics. What you can't see is the train of cars behind me who were also trying to decide which way to go.










Here's a link to the 10MB video clip: http://www.primalsoup.org/videos/vir/itr/closecall.wmv


[Modified by XR4racer, 4:32 PM 7/31/2001]

 

whoa !!

glad no touching occurred
*whew*

 

No doubt. I cringed a little bit more as each image came up hoping we didn't get a super-close-up of the other R. Very glad you guys are both none the worse for wear.

 

wwwhheeewwww---Wrong end of the car to be starin' at when you are goin' that fast. Glad everyone is ok, and that everyone was heads up enough to avoid incident...

-Not ready for wheel to wheel.....yet.

 

Yeah, it's easy to spin, especially when it's raining.

 

Whoa Di! I can't tell what corner is that? Glad everyone came out unscathed!

 

Corey~ You could probably guess which corner if you had to.. 17A - The Hogpen. slippin & slidin!

 

Oh yea! I knew that, i just didn't look close enough.. I ran VIR Full in the rain with you guys at the speedtrial event, and hog pen was very slick!! Rear end on my car would start to kick out everytime, and my car never does that!!

 

Nice work Di.
Looks like you might have missed the apex a bit and the rear end kicked out on you. Steered into it and stayed on the gas until it was a lost cause.
Let that be a lesson kids. That's how you do it. She very likely would have caught that one anywhere else, but hogpen has a reputation for being a tad slick. If I remember correctly, it's a bit off-camber there as well.

Very glad everyone missed her.

 

wow that is WILD.
scary as well.. great pics, great sequence shots.. had me glued to my seat, I can't imagien a video clip... may not even watch it.. to worried!

that was a close call I bet....

 

I posted this to the ITR board. Thought I'd copy it over here. This is my recollection of what happened, including my thoughts have viewed the video in Robert's car.

Going through Hogpin (16 and 17) at VIR, I'd cleared the first turn and must have hit a slicker part of the track since the rear-end didn't stay where it was supposed to be. Knowing Robert (XR4racer) was just behind me, I let the car come around 180 before I locked it down so I could see what was coming. (You can't avoid what you can't see.) Looked like Robert was going to his right, so I went to my right. The corvette behind Robert went left (much to my surprise) and we stopped maybe a car length from each other. Thank goodness for good Corvette brakes. Everyone else got by behind Robert on the right (my left) and I got to hit the pits for a trip to see Jack (b18cxr, running control) and Lee (the VIR pit-out guy). We all lived through it and no cars were bent in the making of this forthcoming video clip from Robert.

 

Fortunately, or unfortunately, I've had a lot of "crisis management" practice. In this situation, I knew Robert was just behind me, and I needed to be able to see him to avoid him. So when I knew I was going around, I wanted to get the car pointed straight backwards for avosion techniques. I needed to get the car to one side of the track or the other, preferably the side Robert didn't pick.

For those of you who haven't spun, or spun much... (1) Go find a skid pad and spin. You will eventually spin your car if you do enough of this and you need to know what it feels like before, during, and after, and what to do about it. (2) You have an amazing amount of control over what happens in your spin. With steering, braking, and a good feel for the car, you can control, to a point, where that car ends up. Never stop driving the car.

Here's my question to Will and Robert... why is it you two play into both my on-track spins this year??? Huh???

 

HERE'S THE VIDEO CLIP: It's a 10MB file.
http://www.primalsoup.org/videos/vir/itr/closecall.wmv

Di~ I don't know why we always seem to be there.. kinda weird huh?


[Modified by XR4racer, 10:19 AM 7/31/2001]

 

hrmmmness.

I was behind you the first time... SCARY
The second time I was in front and had nothing to do with that oil dumped out of my drivers side window.

Willie

 

So THAT was why it was slick... afraid I was gonna catch ya huh... [in a Miata... yeah right...]

 

I spun my CRX in the hog pen on the last lap of a race last summer (in the dry). It can get VERY slick there.

Hey Di, what you wrote about controlling the spin was interesting. I have TONS of skid pad time, and nobody has ever taught me how to control the car during the spin, not even Skip Barber. I've never heard of straightening the wheel once you have lost it. All I was ever told was "both feet in". Where did you pick that up from?

Matt

 

Gosh, good question. I've done my share of spinning, both autocross and track. I think it's been trial and error to figure out what works for me and my car. I don't think I could even verbalize it. I wanted to try to get the car 180 around so I could see what was coming and then drive the car (backwards) where it was out of the way. I think I straighten the wheel since any steering input when the car has decided it's going around is useless anyway. Kinda like the "more steer is not the solution to understeer" thing. If I have the wheel straight, I can turn either way once the car settles, but if I'm at one lock or the other, I don't have as many options, and if the car is gonna spin, it's gonna spin, wheel at lock, or wheel centerd isn't going to change that. Does this make any sense? I have to say I've never thought much about it, I just do it by how the car feels, and there is no way to explain that.

The incident where I realized that even a spinning car was controlable was the incident I hit the tirewall in February. Once I left the track and hit the wet grass, there was no traction for manuvering. It was in this instant that I realized 2 things... (1) I'm gonna hit that tire wall, and (2) A driver has a lot of control over a car in a spin/off situation IT they have traction. This was my first big off with no traction. Interesting lesson... Anyway the next day... It was wet, and I, for some reason, was moving along faster than Will and Robert so I got the point by on the bridge straight. I proceded to spin in South Bend, and knowing the guys were not far behind, my first concern was getting the car off-line so they could get through. It spun 270 and I backed 2 wheels off to be sure I was out of the way.

In these 2 situations, perhaps I was simply lucky that the car went around the degrees I wanted it to... 180 in Hogpin, and 270 in South Bend. Perhaps it has nothing to do with driving technique. Some other drivers who've spun a bunch would have to give their input, but both times the car did what I wanted it to do, so I don't think it's all concidence.

What do other experienced track folks think? Scott? Oscar? Rice? Matt? Starnes? Anyone?

 

Funny thing is that Diane and I were talking about this very topic on the way back from Viper Days in her Miata. Hmm.

First of all, that corner is a handful in the dry, for those who haven't been on the North or Full courses at VIR. You come down this steep hill, and turn right at a fairly high rate of speed. Turn-in is off camber and downhill. About 1/3 to 1/2 of the way through the corner there's a depression, and most cars will feel like they get WAY loose there. It seems to be located in a place where cornering load is at its highest, and the rear wheels sort of just fall into it. In the dry, the depression levels out, and the track literally "catches" the car and off you go. It's an unmistakable feeling. I suspect that in the rain there isn't enough grip where the camber comes back to catch a car moving quickly through that corner - and Diane does move rather quickly through that corner.

I would imagine that having the wheels pointed straight when the car is 180 degrees around is a lot of what kept you from continuing to spin. If there is still steering input, when the car is 180 around, it might actually want to roll on its tires. If there's steering input dialed in, the car will swing around again.

I'm not sure I'd handle such a situation very well at all. I've had a drive-off (with Ewan in the car with me at Talladega this Spring), and had my now-famous "what happened" spin at Roebling last year. The others were a really long time ago at my first and second events, and they were at fairly low speeds.

Having said that, I'm sure luck has at least a little bit to do with it. In a low-control situation like that, there has to be some element of luck. I dunno, maybe not - like I said, I haven't spun very often.

BTW, the link for the video is broken.

 

Video Link works great when I try it..

 

Honestly, I don't spin very often. When I have, I've found there's not much I can do except enjoy the scenery as I go. I have learned since my ground control install that there is a very brief instant at which I can catch the back end. If it gets beyond, say, and 20 degree angle from what I intended, it's gone. The last place I went off was the exit of turn 1/2 at VIR. My fwd Sentra actually OVERsteered on full throttle accelleration out of this corner (Mike Whitney was in the car with me the next session and will confirm I wasn't halucinating). Countersteering at trackout pretty much means you'll soon be on an agricultural expedition. Which is exactly where I ended up. I don't think I have the wherewithall to think about straghtening the wheel and driving backwards in the rain after I spun. If you can, then you're better than me, because I'm looking for a soft place to land.

 

I'm glad you and everyone got out of that unscathed...

I spun in the exact same spot (Hogpen) in the rain (with MaddMatt staring at my taillights at the time...) and the only thing that I was able to do was prevent the car from snapping back on me... and based upon my numerous spins in autocross (and once on the street ), most of the time, that's the only thing I can control... If I counter steer and hold it just longer than I should and not try to save the spin altogether, most of the time I can just keep the slide to one side.

Honestly, Matt, I don't know how you kept out of my passenger door...

Andy

 

Matt, I had a similar experience to yours I guess. I lost the rear end at track-out of T8 in the rain at CMP which was way faster than I ever expected to be going for my first spin. I fought it too long (left, right, left and around) I am afraid and was simply lucky that the car was oriented as much as it could be in a straight line and still go off (and behind T9) backwards of-course. I am sure that for that length of a spin I had way more time than most to, hell do taxes, pay bills, etc. . . , but I only managed to get both feet in. If I made any steering corrections, it was surely out of panic or luck but it was certainly not with intent.

I am certainly one for getting better control of myself at those times. Can anyone suggest where to hook up with a skidpad?

 

Summit Point has a skidpad. During FATTs (friday at the track) all students are assigned a time between track sessions to do a few laps of the skidpad. Not sure if it is available at non-BSR events.

It was quite educational for me. You have to shuffle your hands VERY fast to control a 4000lb car when it starts to let loose. Now that I drive the 4000lb mulletmobile all the time, I'm getting lots of practice (rainy autocrosses and stuff).

 

I spun twice in T3 at Summit Point at a NASA event last year. Each time, the back end just snapped right around, did a 180 and rolled backwards through the gravel trap. The first time, I rolled all the way through the gravel trap -- didn't hit the dirt embankment -- and was able to turn the car around. The second time, I got stuck and was visited by the Summit Safety Safari.

I don't remember what I did during the spin to cause the car to behave almost perfectly (i.e., slowly rolling with all four wheels in contact with the ground). Probably like I did with CamaroFS34's car at an autocross a few weeks ago -- just let go of the wheel. Then say a four-letter word.

 

IIRC, I think I saw it coming, probably before you did. I don't remember exactly what you did but I seem to remember saying "Oh, he's not going to make that." This was probably about the time I saw more of the side of your car than the back of it I usually back off of people a bit in that section because that's not where I want to lift in order to go around someone who's spun in the middle of the track.