I'm getting the cage put in my '93 Civic for ECHC and the cage builder wants to do things differently than I had planned. He said that instead of running the forward bars through the dashboard, he wants to run them just in front of the dash, and then do angled connecting bars, just under the dash, down to the firewall. I know that this is legal for NASA, but is it a handling/stiffness issue? I thought it would be good to have the mounting plates for those front bars as far forward as possible, but do the bars to the fire wall make up for that? The reason he wants to do it that way are for time and cost, incase you were wondering. If I want *any* chance of making it to BeaveRun next weekend, it has to be the way he proposed. What do you guys think?

Matt

Edit for clarification: The forward tubes would come straight down, they would not be bent, and they would be the 5th and 6th mounting points. He would just be adding two extra tubes to connect them to the firewall as 7th and 8th points.

 

IMO, he's just trying to save time. Run the bars through the dash. It's the best way to do it. This doesn't mean that you should skimp out on the wheel well protectors though. Those are not so much for rigidity as they are for safety. Wheels do, and can, punch through thin sheetmetal.

Warren

 

Not sure I qualify, but since I have a cage in the same chassis, here's my $.02

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">He said that instead of running the forward bars through the dashboard, he wants to run them just in front of the dash, and then do angled connecting bars, just under the dash, down to the firewall. I know that this is legal for NASA, but is it a handling/stiffness issue?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought it would be good to have the mounting plates for those front bars as far forward as possible, but do the bars to the fire wall make up for that?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Probably would.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What do you guys think?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you'd be far better off having the forward hoops running through the dash like mine. I used to have the Autopower 6-point where the forward hoops fell short of the dash and really disliked it over time. The bars (driver and passenger side) obstructs your vision to the mirrors and are in your way a lot for general movement about the car. Having them continue forward through the dash will make your life so much easier. Trimming the dash on the otherhand won't.
Let me know if you need pictures of either cage so you'll have a better idea of where the bars will be.

 

Yup - what he said. It is a pain to go through the dash but will result in a better installation.

Kirk

 

I've seen plenty of both style. Regardless of which way you go, get a dash bar (connecting the left and right front uprights), preferably high enough that it won't break your kneecaps.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've seen plenty of both style. Regardless of which way you go, get a dash bar (connecting the left and right front uprights), preferably high enough that it won't break your kneecaps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

if I do the bars through the dash, that is a lot easier to accomplish. if the cage bars are in front of the dash, that bar would be a major knee-smasher...


Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johng &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Let me know if you need pictures of either cage so you'll have a better idea of where the bars will be.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would love to see that actually! thanks.


Matt

 

This is my old cage and gives you a general idea of what "in front of the dash" looks like. Yours wouldn't be too far off from this.




This is the new cage...



... and this is where we put the dash/cross brace. The backside of the dash needs to be ripped out if you put the brace in this spot, and a lot of trimming and fitting is required.

 

The first two pics don't seem to be working John...


Matt

 

John, that's an interesting pic, as my cage is nearing completion now. When I pulled the dash out, I realized how little space there was. My criteria was that I wanted it THROUGH the dash, and wanted to still be able to remove my heater core and blower.

I know what we talked about doing, but I haven't seen what's actually been done. One thing I did was remove that metal bar that runs from the left side, connect to the steering column, then down to the floor. I then planned to lower the steering column some. I believe I also lost the side mounts for the dash, with plans to re-fabricate something after it's done. The idea was to run the bar across the top of the remaining steering column support (also the brake pedal support) but far enough out that the heater core can come out. This should work, only because I'm taking the cluster out - something not legal for IT, or for ECHC this year.

 

Here's my cage. Instead of legs going to the floorboard or lower firewall it ties into the factory "dash bar" if you will. It's not really a bar but a pressed conduit that is pretty heavy. Many cars have actual tubing serving this same function (S2000) which is probably stronger and definetly lighter.


http://www.we-todd-did-racing....3D%3D




I think structurally, it has an advantage over the firewall mounts I usually see posted here. My reasoning is that in the "standard" configuration all 6 (or 8) points of the rollcage are down low, and since gusseting of the cage to the body up high is forbidden (or penalized) by a lot of rulesets, this setup will combat lateral deflection in the top half of the car much more effectively. I realize that deflection in the upper parts of the body is not as much of a concern at down low but I'm sure it helps to some extent. This configuration makes me wonder if my additional dash bar is doing anything but help me get up to minimum weight.

And to directly answer your question, I think you're going to do it you should do it right, even if it means missing an event.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The first two pics don't seem to be working John...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry Matt. Club Photo's site has had issues for the last few days. They told me everything should be back up and running in a day or so. They work for me. Try to refresh.

sackdz:
I like your cage, but you also need to consider where impact occurs and brace in the areas where the driver is affected. Measure your typical racecar front bumper height off the ground because this is where you're getting hit. The lower firewall braces are a good idea.

 

We ran the bars through the dash, and the bar connecting them tight to the steering shaft.

 

*drool*. you guys got some pretty cool cages.

 

Through the dash is the way to go. Makes a huge difference in the amount of room you have - in front of the dash, in an accident you could whack that bar with your hand. It can also interfere with your vision. out the side and to the side mirrors.

 

Matt, did you finally get the car running? What was wrong with it? I'd be curious to know. In case you don't remember me I'm a good friend of dave white's. Have you done any other engine mods to it or dyno'd it? Just want to keep up with your progress and keep an eye on how the car does. Good luck!

Oh, I have no experience as I don't have a caged car and looks really aren't everything with a cage but it seems to look a hell of a lot cleaner if you run the bars thru the dash. I would also have him run the left-right bar conneting the two of them as high as possible. Don't want knee smasher's like you had mentioned.

s

 

Matt, This is a car you may race for many years, so take your time and do it right even if it means missing the race this weekend.

 

Having them as far forward as possible makes ingress/egress much easier too.

I run full interior in my car - cause it's a trailer queen - it was a lot of labor to get the cage to fit but the car is nearly the same space-wise with the cage in as without.

 

Another factor (and Jon's before and after pix illustrate it really well) is that a cage should also help preserve the shell in the event of a crash. I didn't understand this until I started rallying but having the cage REALLY close to the shell, particularly at the top of the windshield and down the A-pillars, can be the difference between repairing and replacing a tub in the event of a rollover.

K

 

Through the dash. Adds about a foot of extra leg protection and your left leg won't rest up against it.
I'm also a big fan of cross bars that are above the steering column. The column will keep the bar from bending into your legs in a severe incident.

Don't half-*** a cage. Do it right the first time or you'll never stop regretting it.

Scott, lucky enough to have two top cage buliders as friends.

 

Thanks a lot for the input guys! My cage will go through the dash.


Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm also a big fan of cross bars that are above the steering column. The column will keep the bar from bending into your legs in a severe incident.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Isn't the reason to have the under dash bar to prevent the steering column from collasping downward?

So, having it below would keep the steering column as is, rather than breaking and following towards your legs (In a severe accident).

I ask out of curiousity, not out of sarcasm.

 

As far as I know - a dash bar should keep the a-pillar bars from coming in on themselves. I have never heard of a dash bar being a preventative measure for keeping the steering column from vertical movement - the term knee knocker (or whatever it is) refers to banging your knees into the under-dash bar not the steering column.

 

Phat S nailed it.

The dash bar helps support the "A" pillar bar and side door bars in a side impact by transferring some of the load to the other "A" pillar, and can stabilize the steering column and firewall in a heavy front hit. A dash bar immediately below the steering column is better than no bar at all; but the higher the better for safe knee clearance. For maximum strength, the dash bar should be perfectly straight with no bends.

 

This is Corey.. Anyways, Matt, pull the windshield out, and go threw the dash! Huge difference! You won't regret, even if it is 500$ more.. (realitively speaking)

Also, about a dashbar, get it as low as possible, w/ out it getting in your way... If a car hits you on the side, where will be bumper hit you? Down low.. I like my so called knee knocker, even though my legs will never hit it..

I don't even know this bar is there, and probably enough room to pad, if I wish...