Interested to get any guidance on heel and toeing an ITR. I'm working on it, but its going slowly and am concerned about wearing the clutch.

Any advice?

 

One thing I don't do for fear of damage is "popping" the clutch while trusting my rev-matching abilities. hit it really hard doing this a few times and decided it just wasn't worth it. Mainly for me it has just been experience. I am learning better every day about how hard to pop the accelerator to get the revs to where I need them on the downshift. Currently, I can do a 4-3-2 under both light and hard braking, and a 4-2 under hard braking with little in the way of error. Still haven't learned the 2-1, and due to the half-synchromesh on that gear don't feel it is really worth it to do. Just MHO though.

I think one of the main wearing concerns will be the synchros from what I have heard. They do a lot more work if you are downshifting every time your are stopping instead of wearing the brakes more by just putting the clutch in and using all brakes to stop. I'll leave it to the experts to really discuss wear and potential damage situations with you.

Good luck to you, I think a goodly portion of it will just be experience and habit. Getting it down to a second nature where you don't need to think about it. I just heel-toe into every stop light, and every other time I need to brake to make myself more familiar.


[Modified by timberwulf, 5:14 PM 6/18/2001]

 

You won't wear the clutch. Get some aftermarket pedals and space them a bit closer together. I tend to use more of the side of my foot than the heel. Watch the option videos...they made it alot easier for me after I saw how they did it.

 

I find that double clutching is easier for me. Again, you have to practice, and it becomes second nature after a while - I don't really even notice that I am doing it anymore, I just do it when it's needed (not all the time). Not as simple as heel & toe, but does the same thing. It is not as effective if you need to do a quick, rapid downshift of multiple gears. 2 is not a problem if I have the room, but 3 might not leave enough time in certain instances, but then you could try to skip a gear with appropriate rev-match.


[Modified by FBP_1171, 3:21 PM 6/18/2001]

 

ez to do, but hard to explain.

yoshi - who has yet to see aoi do this, although he claims he can "sorta" do it

 

Heel-toeing never seems to get a decent enough treatment.

First there is the fact that there is a fair amount of physical difference between drivers in dimension, mobility and coordination.

The easiest way to learn to heel-toe is in a car with floor pivot pedals and a long hanging throttle. That get's you really close to toe on the brake and heel on the gas. Unfortunately this is a now rare configuration. The key idea behind my mentioning it is that if it is physically easy - then the coordination of the mechanical events can be focused on to quicker success.

On the ITR you are stuck with the very common brake pedal and throttle being approximately the same height off the floor - requiring you to use the ball of your foot on the brake and roll the side of your foot over onto the throttle.

It is my opinion that enlarging the brake pedal surface in the direction of the throttle or otherwise reducing the distanced between the brake and throttle is just asking for accidental application of both - usually when you can least afford the mistake. I'm relating this from experience.

If you do anything - find a way of extending the throttle lower so you can get at it with your a lower part of your foot (without interfering with WOT).

I removed my pedal rubbers and put on abrasive tape, and left the stock throttle pedal alone. It is entirely workable as is.

Also, Pierre Kleinubing was using the stock configuration with the stock rubbers when I looked at his car in Las Vegas last year.

Scott, who can't heel-toe right now anyway.....

 

Good points Yoshi and RR - I have fairly small feet, around size 8 (you know what they say about a guy with small feet....hey....wait a second ) and I am able to use the stock pedals with toe on the brake and right midpoint of my foot on the gas. It is rare that I miss the gas, and I have never slipped off the brake (god forbid that ever happen).

The main key is to ensure that you have enough of your toe on the brake to ensure 0 slippage, yet still have enough foot left over for the gas. Try it when you are stopped at a stoplight. Just leave the clutch in and experiment with revving it while still applying the brake. That's how I got my leg "rotation" and style down.


[Edited due to lack of caffeine]


[Modified by timberwulf, 7:56 PM 6/18/2001]

 

You can practice heel-toe throttle application easily. Your car doesn't even have to be moving. Here's how I learned it.

1) First and foremost, you must be in the proper driving position (no gangsta lean in the seats please). You should have a slight bend at the knee sitting in the seat, such that you can press the floor BEHIND the brake pedal firmly and not have your leg fully extended. The seatback is best if it is in nearly the most upright position so that you can reach out and place your wrist on the top of the steering wheel without lifting your shoulder off the seatback. You will find in most cases that in order to have enough room for your legs (especially the right) to move freely that the steering wheel needs to be in the most upright position. Now, for most people the "correct" driving position will feel unnatural, but rest assured once you have become accustomed to it - you will always sit this way.

2) Practice braking with the ball of your right foot. The more of the "edge" of the ball of your foot you can use the better - this will allow you to pivot or roll over your foot to 'blip' the throttle with the outside edge of your foot later once you are trying heel/toe downshifting.

3) While the car is not moving, practice applying the brake with your right foot and simultaneously rolling your ankle over so that the outside edge of your foot applies throttle.

4) On highway offramps, then practice braking with the ball of your foot and blipping the throttle (but not downshifting). Practice this a lot. Some people find it easier to use the heel of the right foot to blip the throttle, others use the outside edge of the foot. It depends on your foot size, leg flexibility and the spacing of the pedals. On the Type R, wider aftermarket pedals are a big help. The stock pedals are too narrow for my liking.

Once you have mastered the above, then try a heel/toe downshift.

Again, on an offramp from 60 mph

1) Say you are in 4th gear, start applying the brake with the ball of your foot. Push the clutch pedal in with your left foot.

2) Watching your line, speed of the car and revs quickly blip the throttle to about 6 or 7 K (do not take your foot off the brake pedal!)

3) Downshift to 3rd and release the clutch.

If you do it properly, you should be able to "rev-match" the car in such a way as to have the clutch smoothly engage without disrupting the balance of the car.

Once you have mastered the single heel/toe downshift, then try a double heel/toe downshift.

In my experience, the hardest thing I had to learn was threshold braking from 100+ mph (by threshold, I mean the absolute maximum braking energy you can generate without having the ABS kick in) and heel/toe downshifting in such a way as to not upset the balance of the car.

The only other thing I can suggest is practice, practice, practice.


[Modified by Big Phat R, 6:07 PM 6/18/2001]

 

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving..._heeltoe.lasso this might help.

 

Good topic. I have a few corners that I look forward to everyday. I haven't tried heal-toeing yet. I usually brake right before the corner, then as I'm shifting down, I tap the gas. If you get it right its awesome.

 

I would suggest not to run down through the gears every time you come to a complete stop. Yes, it "saves" the brakes, but I would rather change a set of pads and rotors than tear down the transmission to replace worn out syncros.

If you want to practice heel and tow, just do it when whenever you would normally downshift. It does help to get the feel for it by practicing on the street.

 

On synchro wear...is there extra wear from heel toeing, beyond that of just down shifting?

The reason I ask is this. Coming up to a turn at 55, I have to brake to about 35, then turn and get back to speed. If I'm in 5th, I've got to shift down at some point. Any wear from that is unavoidable and normal.

Now, if I heel toe, I'm putting the revs where they need to be before the lower gear is selected. The tranny is not being used to slow the car; I'm using the brakes to slow it, just bumping the gears according to speed.

Heel toe doesn't seem to make sense for stopping, as there is no need to keep the revs up. Simply come to a stop and then down shift.

Good heel toe is smooth - feels smooth. Makes me think it's good for the car. Of course, I'm speaking from my knowledge and experience, which is rather light at best, so feel free to question me!

 

heel toe and double clutch. you can perform both seperately, or at the same time, the best drivers will do this. there will be practiclaly no wear on the gearbox or clutch if you do it perfectly.

Read this: http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/double-clutch.html

 

For running around on a track, there is a benefit to heel/toe downshifting. On the street - it's usually just for fun. At the track, depending on the corner and your anticipated exit speed from that corner, it will to your benefit to be in the proper gear with the clutch engaged to maximize your exit speed from the corner. If you can use your inertia to swing the car around the corner at the apex, you will be in the proper gear and revs to maximize your acceleration to the next corner.

Doing this many times in a row on a fast track is pure gravy. Nothing puts a wider smile on my face (ok maybe one thing).

 

A small correction: Heel toe does improve stopping, as it allows you to leave the engine in gear longer. You stall out at a much lower speed in second than you do in fourth for example. By heel toeing down to second as you go, you can come to almost a complete stop before disengaging the engine. It isn't keeping the revs up so much as keeping the engine engaged longer. [edit - at least on the street. Of course on the track revs are paramount to keeping within the powerband]

As for synchro wear: You will wear the synchros heel toeing if you do not double clutch. You will wear the synchros if you don't let the revs drop far enough when up shifting, or when upshifting after letting the revs drop down too far. As for downshifting with a single clutched heeltoe, while you are matching the revs on the engine, you are not bringing the "spindle" up to the speed of the engine. The spindle's speed is only affected when the car is in gear, or when the transmission is in neutral with the clutch engaged (the pedal is all the way out). Double clutching means that you press in the clutch, shift into neutral, let out the clutch long and press the gas pedal enough to bring the revs and spindle up to the proper speed for the next lower gear, then press in the clutch and shift into the lower (higher? never could keep those straight -- e.g. 4 to 3 ) gear. Done perfectly, the synchros will not have to work at all, as the spindle and engine are already going at the proper RPM for the gear you are dropping down into.

Just a little clarity (clear as a muddy lake eh?) from an ignorant llama.


[Modified by timberwulf, 11:39 PM 6/18/2001]

 

On synchro wear...is there extra wear from heel toeing, beyond that of just down shifting?

The reason I ask is this. Coming up to a turn at 55, I have to brake to about 35, then turn and get back to speed. If I'm in 5th, I've got to shift down at some point. Any wear from that is unavoidable and normal.

Now, if I heel toe, I'm putting the revs where they need to be before the lower gear is selected. The tranny is not being used to slow the car; I'm using the brakes to slow it, just bumping the gears according to speed.

Heel toe doesn't seem to make sense for stopping, as there is no need to keep the revs up. Simply come to a stop and then down shift.

Good heel toe is smooth - feels smooth. Makes me think it's good for the car. Of course, I'm speaking from my knowledge and experience, which is rather light at best, so feel free to question me!

 

Now I was under the impression that it was perfectly acceptable to "single clutch" in a car that has synchros. Is that not correct?

I can double clutch pretty well, but with heal-toe (which I just learned) I find it much easier to coordinate everything if I: brake, push in clutch and pop in neutral, blip, put in gear and let out clutch.

I thought I had read somewhere that it was only mandatory to do a full double clutch in a race-transmission/straight-cut gears setup.

Am I off track?

 

Here's another tidbit that will help novice heel/toers. When braking, you're heel should not rest on the floor board. This allows better brake modulation and the ability to move your foot or roll your ankle to blip the throttle. I have a pair of leather sneakers I only use for track events. They're comfortable and fairly wide, allowing me to get crisp throttle blips every time.

Also, I've found that my throttle blips are a lot easier on the track than they are on the street. I'm certainly pressing on the brake pedal a hell of lot harder at the track, and under these conditions the pedals seem to line up perfectly.

Paul

 

WOW... this is a great thread... thanks guys for all the info, now it's time to apply... you never realy know what your doing wrong if don't know exactly what your doing...

crashnburn

 

Perfectly acceptable, but double clutching will ease the wear over time. It is not necessary to double clutch all the time. You only really need to do it when you are downshifting to accelerate (through a turn, passing, etc...)

Unless you release the clutch for the throttle blip, that is heel & toe.

I'd say so.

 

Well, I personally do about the same as mentioned above, I push clutch in, blip and downshift at same time, and let the clutch out. I basically just consider this rev. matching. I do it a lot now just because I needed practice to start to learn how hard to blip the throttle in different gears at different speeds. Now I rev. match pretty easily and without thinking. My reason for doing it is to just ease wear on the car.

My only problem is that in a race situation my method probably wouldn't be fast enough because you come in to a turn so fast and need to brake and at the same time downshift and rev. match.

 

Just remember that the harder you are braking, the less of a throttle blip you'll need, as the speed of the car is dropping faster with the harder braking, thereby needing less in the way of a raise in revs to match the speed of the drivetrain.

 

Double clutch would be: Push in clutch, neutral, *release clutch*, blip, push in clutch and downshift.

The problem is, that you are not really helping if you are not releasing the clutch during the blip, because the matching is not actually happening if the clutch is in.

 

To better see the implications of heel toe try this:
on a straight road downshift and accelerate from 3 to 2 and do nothing other than push and release the clutch as normal hitting the throttle after the clutch is engaged.
next do the same only this time rev the motor to the aprox. rpms that it jumped to on the first downshift then release your clutch and hit the gas.
now if I have explained this correctly you will notice that the first downshift caused you to slow a little and possibly upset the drivetrain. you will notice that the second downshift was smoother and did not slow the car or upset the drivetrain. this is the same effect you want to have in a corner using heel toe. If you take out all of the other factors and just practice rev mathcing it should be easier to rev match when you are actually heel toeing. Next try to heel toe as you are stopping for lights or stop signs as others here have suggested. Finally (on a closed course) try your hand, or foot, at heel toeing in the corners. Hope this helps it's how I learned but as was said, practice practice practice.

I've also noticed the benifits are more appreciated in an FF. The nose plows alot less if done properly (I'm still not that great at it)

 

dumb question -- what's "FF"?