This is actually not a "THIS CAM VS THIS CAM". SO if anyone posts a reply saying the test was not fair or whatever, they are not reading the above line. THis is not a test of what makes more power in an equal motor.

This is a review based on overall performance. Read carefully at my words, I really want you people to understand what I am trying to accomplish. I am not trying to say, for 1 second, that R cams make the most HP.

I am not trying to say R cams win drag races.
I am not trying to say R cams are the best in the world and thats it.

WHAT I AM trying to say is this..

R cams, in my experience, provide you with the most what I call "reliable, useable horsepower"

What is useable horsepower? Here is my huge definition....its a way of thought...

#1 How long will my motor last with this mod?
Answer: The higher you rev the motor, the less it will last. There is no exceptions. So, TO ME, the cam that makes the most horsepower without revving the motor very high is the best. The best in my mind. Drag racing is one thing. The motor can last 1 week, as long as it wins. Thats drag racing. I am talking about the street here. R cams are king. In my opionion. Don't worry, I brought the ammo to back it up.
#2 How much HP do these cams make at 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 and 6,000 ,7000 RPM compared to many others on the market? REMEMBER!! I want your motor to last...people will say..."yeah, my motor revs to 9700 RPM and makes 222 at the wheels at 9700 RPM!" Well, my daily driver car for the shop does make that power, with 236 HP at the wheels, naturally aspirated. BUT, damn, that thing is not, by any means reliable. YOu have to check the springs every week, you have to give it a valve adjustment every week, you have to change the oil often, you have to buy magnetized spoon oil plugs to see if the bottom end is not wearing too much.
AND, you have to compression test it every week to see if the valves and head gaslet are OK. So far, in 6 months, we have broken several different brands of springs. Toda, JUN, Web, they all break, and they are all good.
YOu rev that motor, like I do, 15X a day to 9700 RPM, and trust me, those springs are going to wear the hell out. And break.

So now we have the Type-R Honda cam debate. Why are they, in my opinion the greatest cams on the market.

#1 They make power at lower RPM, which is exponentionally better on the valvetrain.
#2 Power lower means the block does not flex as much. Without a block girdle, the thing rattles at high RPM, you just cant see it.
#3 Who revs their car to 9k RPM daily racing other cars all the time? YOu want to drag race on the street? YOur going to end up in jail, with no car and a shitload of fines coming your way. So chill more. Use the strip...

Here comes the info fellows. All tests were in a similar motor of similar compression and airflow...NOT THE SAME...so take note of that...


Type-R cams compared to Skunk 2 cams...

14-20 HP in the mid range. Note the graphs were smooth, showing air/fuel ratios were very good. Blame the tuning, blame whatever you want. THe pattern begins...the R cams here peak EARLIER than the skunks...but they look good, yes?

Type-R cams compared to some Spoon Cams....

This is definitly not an R VS Spoon cam test...its not fair...its LS/VTEC VS GSR. BUT, what I am trying to show you is the mid range CURVE is better on the R cams...way better. THe GSR motor is stock bore, and the LS block is .40 over....and it has greater stroke also...so if you put that in an equation, you have about what? a little over 3%. So add 3% HP to the graph in all areas and you come pretty close to the Type-R cams in power throughout the band...except from 5500-6500. Get it?

What I am saying is with equal compression, 3% more displaceme

 

Jeff,

This is deffinetely valuable information that we could all use. Yes this is not a comparison meaning no one should base this on testing through the scientific method. Your point is well proven, the ITR cams provide the most useable horsepower in the powerband we use daily.

However, I had a few questions, I assume the lsvtec ITR cam setup was the exact same setup compared to ever other setup. Yet, in the case of the lsvtec ITR vs. the Toda B setup the lsvtec ITR had a max tq figure of 140. Every other dyno run it had a tq figure of 133.6. Was this a fluke or were there adjustments?

Also, with the lsvtec ITR setup, if adjustable cam gears were installed could more power be extracted from the motor or was the 0,0 setting optimum?

I noticed about your setups were that they stated the usage of an exhuast system. Are the dyno runs with or without the CAT bolted on. Im not sure, but maybe this entire debate about you not making Toda's perform to the level God can produce is due to how you dyno cars. Meaning beathability for air flow, Cat being conected or disconnected, or the fact that you know Jun cams and what they like and others know Toda's and what they like.

Whatever the debate is about if you did not unbolt the cat that would rob power from these setups...

And one last thing Jeff in the TODA B setup...you said it ran a 13.1...its basically an ITR in a CTR shell rite?? What were the weight figures for it to run a 13.1 and was the CAT dropped?? If you had the option of throwing in JUN 2s into that setup do you it would of been able to break into the 12's??

Well Jeff thanks again for bringing us such valuable information...maybe its completely what everyone is happy with...but hey we are all here to collect data....and we are not scientists that can duplicate experiments (dynos) that will yield exact results due to all the variables of nature, testing system, dyno factors, etc.

Good luck in you future endeavors in Texas...

 

The 2 charts from 178 Hp and 187 were different motors...

also..not that dyno run #'s, like "run 06" each chart is in a different directory.

All motors here had CATS.

and the LS/VTEC that made 178 HP in all of those charts has STOCK CAM GEARS. Stock.

Jeff

 

Great post

Thanks

 

Jeff,

In your descriptions both lsvtec ITR setups are identical, what caused one to perform better than the other??

How much more power would u expect without the CAT??

And can you elaborate on the TODA setup?? what was accomplished to get that 13.1 pass?? weight figures?? what size slicks?? any other mods?? would the Jun 2s have provided a 12sec break??

 

Jeff, do you do your runs in 3rd or 4th gear? Just curious, not for the sake of a nit to pick.

 

Jeff, this is probably going to be the one of the most informational posts ever. But one question.....wouldnt it be more beneficial to the type R owners of this..type R webboard, if you were to be so kind as to gather some awesome dyno plots of your cam test to work with Type R motors?

Im sure you as well as many others know that every motor is different. Especially when you discriminate between Type R and LS/VTEC....

I would ask for you to try your cam test on a complete type R motor, but Im sure that would be very costly and time consuming..even more than what you have spent! Thanks for sharing with us though. Awesome.

 

Great post indeed. i will be tuning my oem cams soon and these charts helped alot. keep on the good work jeff.

 

Nice to see you hung in there... Damn good post when you read it for what it is...

 

Great post. Thanks for all the info.

 

Great post!

Time to post your header results!

 

Hi,
Great posts - thanks for taking the time to put it together. I do have a question for you. I was suprised that the ITR cams made more mid-range (4-6K) power than the TODAs because several folks here (B18CXR, etc) have seen susbstantial increases in that range over the ITR cams. In fact, gains there have been more impressive than the high RM gains.

I am definately on-board with the desire to make power at 9K and below - reliably is a must for any non pure-race cars.

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

FYI - Set-up mentioned above is usually stock B18c5 bottom end, cold air intake, JDM header w / cat.

 

alright, some nice graphs for once, and more than one too!!

lets see some more!!

 

Interesting but... that's a lot of apples and oranges being compared since there are always quite a few different variables involved. I have a particular issue though, the B16B dyno. In your site it said:

http://www.importreview.com/dyno/1.6/B16B.html

"1999 Civic Type-R motor.
Pretty stock.
Cam Gears
Fuel reg, 92 octane
Intake, exhaust.
Pretty secret.
Just look, don't ask or touch!
haha

Jeff "

I always knew this had to be stroked because no street B16A makes above 125 ft-lbs in fact my own B16A at 121 ft-lbs is the highest I know. To say that is is pretty stock while its displacement has been bumped to 1.8 liter ain't that cool...

In regards to valve spring. What is the specs on those webs? JG uses crazy stiff springs something around 220 lbs/in @ ~.450" lift. JUN springs, and ITR/portflow inner combos and skunk2, crower springs are all around 170-180 lbs/in range.

Did you test the spring rates after you switched them out to see if they are indeed out of spec and if so by how much? What exactly do you mean by the springs breaking anyway?

Springs don't wear per-se. If they are damaged it's usually caused by heat.

ITR/CTR cams are well known to be excellent street cams with power from 6000-8500 rpm (drops pretty fast after 8500 but you can shift at 9000 rpm and still be ahead of next gear).

Intake manifold no one talks about much. The ITR manifold is also excellent to about 8500 rpm and designed to compliment the ITR/CTR cams. For the bigger cams, a properly spec'ed intake manifold can do wonders.



[Modified by frank@b16a.com, 6:56 AM 6/7/2001]

 

I will not go down this road far but!

NO ONE should make the mistake of "claiming" that R cams deliver more "usable" power than B's or even Type III's.

F peak HP. I only want 1 thing in my plots:

A torque line with a slope as close to 0 as I can get it.

If I do that, everything else will fall into place, everything.

Linear power is my sole goal in life. Forget this "I made xx hp with these cams"
Tell me "How much area under the curve did you gain?"
Then we'll compare notes and see if your mod was justified.

Show me a HP line with a slope of 1 and I'll shut up.


O yeah, and if you would please, explain this to me???
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=38831


[Modified by B18CXr, 9:58 AM 6/7/2001]


[Modified by B18CXr, 10:08 AM 6/7/2001]

 

Thanks! ed

 

B18CXr makes good points here. Anyone who has done basic math can tell you more area under the curve is what matters. Also, obviously the smoother the lines the better off you will be. You want a nice constant increase in the amount of power delivered to the wheels; I would imagine it makes driving the car much easier.

 

I wonder why Mugen doesn't make their own cams.......... (or do they?)

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Mugen is really in to the engine internals stuff. Not sure why, but that was my understanding.

 

Exactly.

 

They either consider Honda engines as already perfect or they made a deal with Honda.

 

Mugen used to make VTEC less cams (only conventiontal 2 lower lobes) for the B series engines for competition in the Group-A series (a much more elaborate class than the Group-N endurence).

 

First off, I'd like to say Jeff!

I'm always interested in seeing your dyno plots - even if they aren't all type R motors...

I do have to agree with this post:

In fact, I went ahead and ordered the entire toda b cams + valvetrain + cam gears and V-AFC, etc because of the better midrange of the spec B's. I thought even the spec a's gave a little bump in midrange, but the B's were soooo much better in the midrange over th a's I said what the heck.

I'm guessing this is simply because it is on a different motor.

Am I reading between the lines correctly when I come to the conclusion that you mean the type R and ctr cams are the best cams to upgrade to for those who dont have a b18c5, but have a gsr, ls/vtec, b20, etc? Or are you saying that the itr/ ctr cams perform better for all the engine combinations you tested (as far as midrange goes)?

I look forward to seeing more dyno's...

 

Great job Jeff, no doubt those R cams are good. In my setup I run skunks and you make me want to throw them out and grab some type R cams and chuck em back in, LOL.

My only beef and its a small one is if you would have done the testing on the cams on the exact same car for each test. This makes it a little more accurate. No doubt R cams make great midrange and that 's what you want on the street. I have always said that you want torque and midrange cause that will win any race not peak hp numbers..

Since Jeff is not getting paid to do this, I think we should give him major props. He seems to be backing up all his information that he posts on this board.

Way to go Jeff, you need to tune my car!

 

Ditto!