Thinkin of changin to some groundcontrols ...they will be on my tokico blue shocks

any suggestions would be great!!!

 

get a front camber kit, for the rears you can use washers... the fronts need to be corrected if you lower or else you will have tire wear problems, and make sure that after you are dialed in you go get a full alignment.

 

get rid of your tokiko blues.

<--- speaking from experience.

 

thats some serious misleading information!

you only need a camber kit of you go lower then 1.8-2 inches.

if you stay above that you will be fine with just lowering it and getting an alignment

 

yes some KYB's wil go better with the GC's.

 

ok, the post wasnt "im dropping my car w/ nuespeed sports" so based on the fact that he is getting adjustable coilovers i figured he would want to get rid of his fender gaps... this means a 2+ inch drop, which also means camber correction. 1.8" drop on civic is not much, so my suggestion stands GET A CAMBER KIT. and if you think that was some "serious" misinformation you need to loosen up.

 

I had some neuspeed sport springs and I started to wear the insides of my tires so I had to get a camber kit. Needless to say I don't think that that was bad advice.

 

Whats misleading about it? he's completely right. Any lower then stock height will result in negative camber which can drastically decrease your straight line perfomance (However slightly imporoving your cornering) Negative camber also causes wheel hop which can kill your launch. Negative camber also wears your tires incorrectly. A lowered car without a camber correction kit is improperly lowered Plain and simple. A small amount of negative camber is good but I stress a SMALL amount.

 

Incorret Toe settings are more damageing to Tires than camber ever will. I have been running on the same tires for almot two years. I have about -2 inches of camber in the front and about 1.75 in the rear. Any car will handel better with negative camber. Most Tires can handel about -2.5 before the start to show any abnormal wear. It most applications you only need a camber kit if you are going to be continually adjusting your camber settings for changing conditions.

Anytime you change the ride hieght of your car you should get an aligment to see if your toe setting has changed. too much negative of postive toe will tear up tires big time.


[Modified by Solracer, 9:57 PM 2/24/2003]

 

Any car will handel better with negative camber - WRONG - yes negative camber does improve cornering a bit, but the gains are not worth what you lose in your straight away. Think about it, most of the preassure is being applied to the the inside of the wheels - Not evenly. Do you know what traction means?

Incorret Toe settings are more damageing to Tires than camber ever will. - yes any moron knows that incorrect toe settings can damage tires, but negative camber can also severely damage tires. YOU NEED A CAMBER KIT WHEN LOWERING YOUR CAR! Unless you dont care about performance and are a ricer with thousands of dollars to spend on new tires.




[Modified by B16A2-EM1, 2:16 PM 2/24/2003]

 

I need a camber kit very badly. Negative camber ownz me.

 

He asked for the downsides of coilovers. Do you mean sleeves or full coilovers?

 

Ya i guess I should have been more specific ......I am interested to know how they are in winter, do the sieze, etc.? How easy are they really to adjust height? I mean sleeves not full coilovers ....

 

Only downside to TRUE coilovers is the cost, to some. To others, it may be just pocket change.

 

sorry to say solracer, but B16A2 is right. I've worked on tires, wheels, and alignments for about a year now. YES toe does damage tires severely, but so does a negative camber. If you've been running the same tires for almost two years then you're pretty lucky, or you haven't felt the inside of your tires. Maybe you should try feeling them one day, they might be a little more worn then you thought. Also, I hope you've been rotating your tires a lot. Maybe you should try getting an alignment solracer, maybe your steering wheel will be straight again.

to gribbs, you should definately get a new camber kit if you're planning on getting coilovers, it'll be worth it.


[Modified by SoOn2B_EG, 8:40 PM 2/24/2003]

 

Do You? So all the road racers I know that run negative camber on thier cars are fooling themselves and should set the camber to 0 and move on? I think not. Why would you need all that traction on the strait away, they sure dont seem to care and neither do I? DO you know how a suspension Works?

SoOn2B_EG Wow a whole year huh? The guy who does my alingments has been doing it for about 20 and racing honda's for about 10 years. I sold tires and suspensions for 2 1/2 years myself. I rotate my Tires regulary and I inspect them regulary since I usually am on track around once a month. (and by track I mean a road course) They are wearing pretty evenly after 2 years, yes there is more tread on the ourside than the inside but not a whole lot. His standard recomendation for honda's that are going to auto-x and/or do track days while being street driven. Is 1/8 toe out in the front, 0 In the rear, -2 degree's of camber upfront and -1.5 to 1.75 degrees of camber on the rear for a dual purpose car, that will be drivable on the street and not eat tires. BTW my sterring wheel is perfectly strait, the car goes strait down the road, however it will follow the groves in the road from time to time, from the 1/8 inch of toe out in the front.

I will agree with this statement however .If you are lowering your car excessivly and I mean more that 1 or 2 inches, you should get a camber kit because exseccive negative camber will cause problems. However if you are going to lower your car no lower than 2 inches or so camber kit money can be spent on something else (like a good aligment).

p.s. if you would like to see were I get me experience go to my website http://www.tksax.com



[Modified by Solracer, 4:49 AM 2/25/2003]

 

are you joking? What exactly do you lose in the straightaway? ever hear of Australian V8 Supercars? they run close to -4 degrees of camber and do about 200 mph on the straightaways while cornering at close to 2 g's

road race cars aren't concerned with traction in the straightaway, its the cornering that matters
a car faster through the corners will come out ahead, remember tires at speed through a corner roll and flatten out, same as under braking the weight transfer flattens the front tires out

your physics are correct, but your assumptions about handling are not

 

Negative camber wears the tire far slower than toe in or toe out. -1.5 to -2 is fine for a mostly street driven Honda/Acura if you go to an auto-x or track event once in a while to even out the wear

You don't need a friggin camber kit just to lower your car. Which brings me to the point. Why the hell are you lowering your car?

Warren

 

Bling! Bling! Bling! We have a winner!

I assume you are getting coilovers because you want a car that handles well in the twisties. If this is the case, then some negative camber is desirable (somewhere between -1.5 and -2 is fine for a street car). You will also want 0 toe in front and slight toe-in rear (0 toe front helps with turn-in, toe-in rear helps stability at high speed).

If you just want the car to look good, I can't help b/c Civics are fugly anyways

 

Your comparing a race car with like 400+ Hp to a civic you *** clown(Solracer included, read carefully) they are totally different. Learn to read, I agree with you, a little negative camber will help in cornering, I stress a little. But we drive Civics on the street not in a professional race (in most cases) What you lose in the straight away is not worth what you would gain in cornering. Not to mention wearing down expensive tires. You will be losing a lot of traction off your launch with to much negative camber becase the power coming from the engine is not evenly distributed to the tires... (This also causes wheel hop) TRACTION! learn what it means. The reason race cars have a lot of negative camber is because they have the power to compensate for the loss of traction in a straight away. Also because in Touring type racing the whole race is basically all cornering where they can take advantage of using a lot of negative camber. For street use too much negative camber is bad, plain and simple...


[Modified by B16A2-EM1, 8:01 AM 2/25/2003]

 

The only downside of coilovers is that they settle some with time just like springs. My drivers side gets lower than the passenger side after a couple of months, but I just have to go and raise it up a couple of turns. Maybe I am just thick.

 

first of all I did not call you any names so refrain from calling me any

Warren is right, unless you go beyond -2 dgrees than toe will be the only thing that wears tires

I am still curious as to what you exactly lose in the straightaway?

 

You really don't have a clue do you? You cannot make up for loss of traction if you do not have enough traction, more power is not going to give you more (probably less) The reason most race cars run a lot of negative camber, and by a lot I mean mor than around -2 degress it because it helps the corner better. I have ran my car on a dragstrip with -2 degress of negative camber and due to my springs I either spin or get traction, my car does not wheel hop at all.



[Modified by Solracer, 4:15 PM 2/25/2003]

 

ok lets get back on topic here for a second, the downsides of true coliovers are infact price and ride comfort... im running tein ra's with s.t. 26mm front swaybar, 22mm itr rear and my *** can get really kicked when im on a shitty new england road. however the benifit is that when im on a relatively smooth road i can corner with amazing precision and almost no body rool, i can basiclly predict very well when my tires are going to break loose, and when they do i can control my car very well.
this brings us to the next point... tires. a car will only grip as good as the tires will let it... spending $3000 on your suspension setup and leaving on the stock tires will result in a bumpy ride and not much better grip or handing than stock, ill let you think about that for a second and youll see why. as far as camber goes, i am not suggesting that running 0 camber is good or the way to go, i run nearly -2 in the front and about -1 in the rear... i'd say that these are very aggresive settings for the street and i do have to keep my so3's rotated or else they wear unevenly, simple as that, with directional tires they must be dismounted and remounted on the opposite side in order to wear both sides evenly, now this gets expensive, but again its a sacrifice i made for good handling. i still run camber kits b/c even though i am running negative camber i would have no way to dial-in to the setting i want w/out them, if i just dropped my car and let the camber be, id have close to 2 in the rear and probibly over 3 in the front, this would absolutely TOAST my tires on a street car plus like someone did mention earlier, straightline stability is affected somewhat. so someone who is not so performance oriented would not even want to run these camber settings b/c it would not help his style of driving at all and it would just end up trashing his tires. this guy posted about getting a set of tokiko blues and ground controls... not a bad setup, i would get different shocks, but when i saw that i assumed(which i shouldnt automatically do) that he was not going for an all out perfornace machine like some of us, and he would be better off with only a small amount of camber and no toe, which is why i suggested a camber kit and full allignment. i CAN'T believe that it caused this much controrsey.

bringing professional racecars into this scenario siting v8 supercars that run -4degrees is just stupid, these cars have multi-multi-multi thousand dollar suspension setups, race tires, and shocks that they probibly have to lease they are so advanced and expensive these cars also get a fresh set of tires about every 20 laps and theyre free from whoever sponsers them, the same goes for realtime, they change their tires every race and never have to straightline speeds for more than a few hundred yards.

im done ranting. i still say get a camber kit, it's 200$ at the most and it will more than pay for itself when you get an extra 5k miles out of each set of your more expensive tires. and if you are still wnating to run aggressive camber, get a camber kit b/c then you will be able to test out different setting you like and be able to choose the best setup.

 

a car with alot of negative camber just becomes twitchy on the highway and especially over 100mph, you are constantly having to correct the steering wheel and it just wont feel as planted and stable as a car with more tred on the pavement, there is a happy medium, but i assure you its not -4degrees its more like 1.5-2. in the front, i run 0 toe front and rear b/c i dont thing it would make a really notable difference and i cant be wearing out my summer tires so fast, they are expensive and wear quickly.

also i have 2 large water channeling groves in my tires and if i was really resting on the insides of my tires then these would not even work and i would be hydoplaning eveywhere. again something a streetcar must consider but a racecar either doesnt have to worry about on a sunny day, or can easily compensate for on a wet day.


[Modified by euclid, 12:35 PM 2/25/2003]