Now when going n/a setup how effective are individual throttle bodies? Is it just better to frankenstein it build the motor headers ect... or buy them individual throttle bodies?

Thanks

 

its very effective if you want all you can get out of your n/a motor... kills your milage and costs a fortune though. i would rather spend 2 grand on the exterior

 

ITBs are bad *** and not many dab into them. They are not all that easy to tune and the above reasons. try a search and find some peeps that ran em.

 

I believe that Toda's ITB setup goes for about $2700. If you are just getting started on a NA setup, then you could get a lot more for your money elsewhere (quality header, pistons, crank, port-n-polish, etc.).

 

imho opinion itb are are waste of time and money... somebody i know did an na b18c5 buildup in a eh2 for drag purposes only.... he was running itbs and he hated them so much he took them out, he said the tuning was NEVER right, now imagine the hassle of driving them everyday on the street. everybody has different agendas and different budgets but they are imposible to tune, you will end up spending way too much $ on them. plus you will have to tear down your engine all the time, esp driving on the street, b/c there is no way to filter the intake air enough... ive seen little foam covers that keep the big **** from getting sucked up, but dirt basically has free reign on your head.

 

My throttle bodies. Yum.

I'm really liking the TWM setup. For about 2 grand I got the throttle bodies, fuel rail, 4 injectors, and an airbox. A lot of the people who whine that ITBs cost too much go out and get a Skunk2 manifold ($300), big bore throttle body ($300+), new injectors of ANY SIZE ($300+), and a new fuel rail ($300+). You're almost to the price of my throttle body setup (At least $1500 on the individual components), and the ITBs will provide better throttle response, more horsepower, and lower intake temperatures. In addition, my ITB setup positions the injectors higher in the intake runners to promote atomization and swirl.

Wrong. Here's my airbox:

Airbox:

Connects to an intake just like any standard TB system.

There's also carb filters

Also you have the possibility of mounting individual filters to the air horns. You'd need some custom mounting hardware, but it would be easily made with a couple sheets of ABS, a dremel, and some high temp adhesive. Providing, of course, that your ITBs are mounted in an engine bay which provides enough room for the individual filters.

As for tuning, as long as you go to someone who knows what they are doing, an essential requisite for any system, you'll be fine. If you have a turbo, you wouldn't have someone who'd only done NA applications tune your car. Someone experienced in both V8s (and their ITB systems) and imports will do nicely. I've been talking extensively to Tom Payn (www.payntechnologies.com), and he'll be doing my tuning for the ITBs.

So please know what you are talking about before opening your mouth. Thanks.

 

i agree with you for the most part, however stock injectors will take you to 200ish to the wheels and the fuel rail never needs to be upgraded, itbs are a more expensive setup, not to mention tha standalone that is really required to extract there full potential for power

 

I'm not hardly a motor expert, but wouldn't putting that style of air filter on your itb setup be a bottleneck and make the itb setup near useless? I would think that the only proper filter setup would be a filter per tb. seems like that setup will hurt the throttle response of the itb setup.

 

i stand corrected on some of the stuff i just posted about but i do agree with this post as well, if you are planning to cap the itb off like that what would be the point,,, the only setups i have ever seen have the horns completely exposed. do you have a dyno of your setup? i am under the impression that the itbs dont do **** under 5k and then they come to life in the top end, which again makes them terrible on the street... you are the only person ive come across that is actually fully praising this setup, so you need to go into better detail about your car, ecu, hp, timeslips ect... i would never spend 3K on a product that i know so little about, so why dont you try and explain some stuff that only a person running them would be able to.

EDIT: also specify gas mileage, and whether or not you are LEGAL on the street. i may be asking you post alot of info but i am seriously curious about how these work... and ill open my mouth whenever the **** i feel like it, if i didnt open my mouth then we might not be getting the full story on this.


[Modified by euclid, 1:50 PM 2/17/2003]


[Modified by euclid, 1:56 PM 2/17/2003]

 

What about the emmison on. Are they pain? Did u pass? I live in IL. Please give me your feedback
thanks

 

ITB's are all about top end. As far them being "untunable" that's not true, there are plenty of people using these on the street, just have to use a tuner that knows how to tune them correctly

 

Surprisingly, not really.



Airbox.



Airbox.



Airbox.

Similarly, if you look at the Ferrari F40, F50, and the new Enzo, all have individual throttle bodies leading to a carbon fiber airbox, which then routes to strategic air inlets.

Obviously you won't flow quite as much as without any filter, but just as with conventional throttle body systems, colder air is often much more beneficial than lots of hot air. Which is why we get CAIs instead of strapping a filter to our throttle bodies.

Secondly, one of the main advantages in ITBs lies in intake air velocity and not quantity. Obviously, with individual 40mm TBs and runners, you will have increased flow and increased velocity over a single 70mm throttle body.

Why do high power V8s run dual exhaust? Because even though it is feasable to use one large pipe, better power can be gained from duals, even if the dual exhaust uses the same collector and muffler style.


[Modified by qtiger, 1:51 PM 2/17/2003]

 

With using an airbox or air bath, the throttle bodies have a direct source of fresh air, once the car is moving. Again, you can expect siginificant top end gains with proper tuning, but the low end will suffer.

 

good info, would you say that low end would suffer even compaired to stock, or the hp/tq curve would just jump up in the top end, but the low end would still be better than a stock low end? im all about mods that make power, i was just under the impression that the negatives outweigh the positives...and again, are these legal to run on the street.

 

ITBs, as with any intake setup, vary based on manufacturer. And among models produced as well. For example, TWM produces two sizes of throttle body for some Honda motors, 50mm and 52mm. While you may initially think '2mm, who cares', you have to apply that to a total change of 8mm for the whole set. I know someone with the 52mms on an H22, and he's said they are pretty peaky. On the flip side, the Toda ITBs are slightly smaller (I've been quoted 45mm, but if anyone has an exact number, I'd be really grateful) and correspond to the midrange and top end power of their higher power cams (as can be expected).

I cannot tell you how peaky mine are, as tragically they have not been tuned yet. I have classes 5 days a week in addition to work. Hopefully I'll invest some time and money over spring break to get it running properly, but for right now I live and work on campus and therefore don't have need for a daily driver. Also, I didn't feel like letting the university bend me over a desk and rape me for a parking sticker.

The engine is an OBD2 B18C1 which has been recently dropped into an ultra-ghetto white '94 CX, complete with ridiculous rainbow side graphics and nasty car bra, supplied by the previous owner.

I plan on getting step-by-step dynoing of ITBs and no other major modifications (as I'm honestly curious as to the power gains/losses over stock w/o performance camshafts), and then with whatever cams I choose.

My tuner, Tom Payn, has tuned a couple of TWM systems before and has me looking at Comp Cams' new offerings, but I'm still waiting on some dyno sheets before I decide on that. Back to the peaky issue, he warned me against Skunk2 and Jun cams, as he says they'll give peak power but ruin the midrange potential of the ITBs.

On the tuning side of things, I've got a brand new AEM programmable engine management system. The only tuning difficulty I've run into so far relates to the MAP sensor. Obviously, there's no central vacuum source for the throttle bodies, and running it off one cylinder won't work correctly. So I can either base load on RPM, which the AEM can do, run a MAP sensor through some form of vacuum canister (IE: Golden Eagle), or convert to MAF, which the AEM can handle but doesn't sound like a barrel of fun to me.

I'll get some permanent numbers when the tuning is complete, but I expect a 10%-15% drop in MPG.

As for legality... they certainly aren't CARB legal, but everything should be A-OK in Michigan, land of a million Mustangs and no emissions laws.

 

I remember a while back Jeff (importbuilders/importreview) was talking about a motor that they built that had pretty amazing numbers and was utilizing ITB's. The graph only showed from about 3k-3.5k and up, he said that was for a reason. Even fully tuned that it fell on its face in the low RPM, but made huge numbers once it opened up. Just a thought, I'm sure you could dig up that thread with the dyno #'s and everything if you searched.

Edit: Yeah I'll try to dig up that thread, one of the main issues that came up was how they used Hondata and still got MAP sensor readings from an external vacuum source.


[Modified by ill phil, 1:22 PM 2/17/2003]

 

In case I didn't cover this enough in the previous post, I'll jabber about it a bit again.

This will really depend on your setup. Toda will give you more midrange, and if you really felt like it you could hack up the ITBs off of a 929RR or something and use them. Just like an exhaust system, volumetric efficiency and flow are major trade offs. You can design an ITB system for any purpose, but the concept of individual throttle bodies is not inherently peaky.

As for legality, that would depend on where you live. Many cars and motorcycles have OEM individual throttle body systems, and as such they cannot be universally outlawed, so the ITBs will fall under whatever laws your jurisdiction has on modified vehicles.

 

Here's the link with dyno and some interesting info on low end from ITB's and vacuum.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=260670

 

Those engines look sick!

 

i remember reading both those posts about importbuilders and the one on the 929 sportbike set-up which would be awesome but take alot to fabricate. the fact that they wouldnt even post the numbers for the low end made me think that this setup would be useless from stoplight to stoplight, if i wanted to deal w/ serious power differences i would get a turbo which would make alot more peak than the itbs for the same amount of money... i can understand a car suited for the track that would stay in vtec all the time would benefit from such a top end loving setup, but again i cant see this being very usefull on the street...

 

An excellent illustration of why I got an AEM EMS.

Hmm... if everything is fine above 5K, I will probably end up using TPS based fuel below 5K and using the nitrous fuel and ignition maps to handle 5K+.

The funny thing is, Skunk2 runs the exact same ITB setup on their drag car with a chipped ECU and AFC, but won't tell me how they do it.

 

It's clearly explained a couple pages into the thread that the car doesn't produce full power under 5K due to the pulsating vacuum created by the individual cylinders. While a normal intake manifold has relatively constant vacuum in the plenum, the same is not true with ITBs.

Unfortunately, that car was tuned using a Hondata, which is less than ideal for this type of setup. There's just some things that the stock ECU can't handle, modified or not.

 

how much did you pay for the standalone ecu?

 

About a thousand. Not bad when you consider the price of a Hondata stage 4 + ROM emulator.

 

I ran the ITB setup with the Apex PFC and it runs fine. Idles like stock. XS Engineering has a ITB base program you can buy. Too bad I never got to dyno my setup.