satan_srv

Hey guys, just to give you a little background, over the summer we dropped an H23 VTEC into my car. And damn if it wasn't a powerful engine. Anyways there are many many mods on the engine:

H23A1 CRANK KNIFE EDGED
H23A1 CONNECTING RODS SHOT PEENED
H23A1 SLEEVED BLOCK STOCK BORE (DARTON SLEEVES)
H22A1 OIL SQUIRTERS
H22A1 DOHC VTEC HEAD
ARIAS FORGED PISTONS 11.5:1 COMPRESSION
CROWER STAGE 3 CAMSHAFTS
DUAL COIL VALVESPRINGS
TITANIUM VALVE SPRING RETAINERS
PORT AND POLISHED H22A1 HEAD
3 ANGLE COMPETITION VALVE JOB
ENTIRE MOTOR BALANCED AND LIGHTENED
64MM BORE THROTTLE BODY
370CC RC INJECTORS
AEM FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR
UNORTHODOX CRANK PULLEY
AEM CAM GEARS
ARP STUD BOLTS
CLUTCHMASTERS STAGE 3 CLUTCH
CLUTCHMASTERS ALUMINUM FLYWHEEL 9LBS
KAAZ LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL
GSR ECU CHIPPED CUSTOM FUEL/SPARK

Without cam gear tuning, the engine put out 203whp and 160tq. With all the lightening and balancing that was done the car accelerated so fast! Everything about the car was great...great torque, great sound, no complaints. Then....

At 11,000kms or so...it looks like the crank may be done. I won't know until the engine gets into the builder in a month...but it doesn't matter. I am already suspicious the problem is the crank and connecting rods. Basically I think the engine was plain revving too high givien the engine geometry. So I recommend to you H23 VTEC people to watch how high you rev the engine, no matter how lightened and balanced it is...but I do think that if I had aftermarket rods this may not have happened...anyways.

I started contemplating my options...If I stay N/A I will keep the Arias pistons. I am buying aftermarket rods. So the main decision here is regarding the crank. If I go with the H23 again I have the 1.49 RSR and I would not rev the engine as high as before, 7500 max.

But..I could go with an H22 crank and a custom rod, but I mean that's the same old deal...1.58 RSR and better rev capabilities...longer life....

But.....then I got into reading the discussions around the F20B crank. I will do more research on fitment, but I do believe this to be plug and play into the H22/H23 block. Now let's crunch some numbers:

A stock F20B has a 85mm bore and 88mm stroke. My sleeves are 87mm bore. My current setup had a 141.925 mm H23A rod and a 95mm stroke. So that's 189.425mm (corrected by Forbidden) to play with in total rod length and stroke. Given I keep my pistons and were to put in an F20B crank at 88mm, I need a custom rod of 145.425mm to make proper height at TDC. Look at these numbers:

Engine h22a h23a H23VTEC/F20b
Bore 87 87 87
Stroke 90.7 95 88
Disp. 2156 2258 2091
Rod 143.0 141.925 145.425
R/S 1.577 1.494 1.653

This setup would yeild a displacement of 2.1L and a rod/stroke ratio of 1.65. If optimal is 1.72 this looks like a great setup! If any of my math is wrong let me know...but intuitively this looks like an amazing N/A setup. Please comment on my theory here, cause if it looks good, I will try it. I'd much rather have a more reliable engine at 2.1L than the risks with the 2.3L



[Modified by satan_srv, 2:38 PM 10/25/2002]

Boostless97Lude

whoa.... man, that's some serious math there...

my opinion, yes it's simple, but hey, i'm a simple person

why not just get an H22 block with an H23 crank?

ok, here's why, but first i've got question to make sure my theory will work.

Does the H23 have the oil squirters?
Do you have to run an external oil line like you do on the LS/VTEC?
Does the H23 have a main cap bridge?

ok, my theory (if building it is like an LS/VTEC)
ok, the H22 has the oil squirters, that supposed to help the life of the high revs, therefore, that's why VTEC engine have them.

also, this will save you from having to run an external oil line

if you use an H22block, the you will also have the advantage of the main cap bridge, which will prevent crank walk.


if my theory is wrong, pleae tell me.

i have an LS/VTEC with a B18B block, no main cap bridge, no oil squirters, and with an external oil line. i am currently looking for B18C block and i am going to put my crank, rods, etc in there and have a B18C stroker, that way i will have more realiability.



[Modified by Boosted97Lude, 2:20 PM 10/25/2002]

laughinxxx

Edit: I can't read



[Modified by laughinXXX, 11:37 AM 10/25/2002]

satan_srv

My h23 block is sleeved..I would be retarded to go with an H22 block now, and the blocks are 99% the same.

H23 doesn't have oil squirters but the H23 block has a place for them. I have already added H22 oil squirters in the H23 block. You don't have to run an external oil line like the LS/VTEC that's why it's nice, the blocks are the 'same' the lines are already in the H23 block. Don't know what you mean about main cap bridge?


k, my theory (if building it is like an LS/VTEC)
ok, the H22 has the oil squirters, that supposed to help the life of the high revs, therefore, that's why VTEC engine have them.


You'll have to explain this one...cause if I don't have it then I may be interested...but given the H22/H23 blockare the 'same' essentially it should be there

satan_srv

I actaully have H23 block and crank. Either or...I see them as the same setup since we added the oil squirters


[Modified by satan_srv, 2:29 PM 10/25/2002]

Boostless97Lude

not trying to be a smart ***, but i assume that means he's using an H23 block with an H23 crank

Boostless97Lude

what about the cap bridge? does the H23 have one?

satan_srv

Tell me what it is....

satan_srv

Okay h23 has same cap bridge as well:

"The blocks for H22A's and H23A's are the same part number in the catalog as well as the main cap bridge and other associated parts. The H23A block is already machined for the oil squirters. "

tec-9-7

Ok, wait a sec... Wouldn't that put you damn close to a stock H22 in displacment (2,157 cc or something like that)?

Paul

satan_srv

Yes in my original post I put H22 displacement at 2157 and a 1.58 RS....

THis setup would be 2091 and a 1.65 RSR. Better geometry at little sacrifice in displacement....don't you think?

Boostless97Lude

the big thing that bolts up to all the main caps, i'll see if i can't find some pics once i get to my computer at home

satan_srv

Post pics...but yeah I think I have confirmed the H23 block also has it. Sooo let's keep going on this. You're right though...the H23VTEC is somewhat 'easier' than the LS VTEC for these kind of reasons

tec-9-7

Oh man, you are going into some hotly contested territory here and I won't even pretend to have much expertise - I've always heard that yes, as a general rule, it is better to have a square to slightly over square motor for reving, but doesn't the piston speed become an issue as the stroke shortens? I guess I'm just wondering if the benefit here is going to justify the hassle of the custom stuff you are talking about...

Paul

tec-9-7

If you are willing to do all this, why not sleeve and overbore to 89 mm? Then you will have a truly oversquare motor w/ an even better ratio...

Paul

satan_srv

Well in terms of 'all' this is the easy way because I already have a sleeved 87mm bore block and a forged piston that fits into it perfectly. I would rather get the crank (not custom) and a custom rod than go through overboring my darton sleeves, buying new pistons, and custom rods.

At this point I expect the crank has to go, I'd like to keep as much as possible



[Modified by satan_srv, 2:59 PM 10/25/2002]

Boostless97Lude

ok, well, my one and only idea has been shot down. my knowledge was pretty much surpased in the first thread

all i can say is good luck, and let us know if you do it, that's really gonna be sweet as hell when it's done.

TimoneX

Interesting. What symptoms does the engine show now? What makes you think it's the crank? Were new bearings put in? Honda? ACL? How high were you revving before, I didn't see if you mentioned it. Really with that torque you shouldn't need to rev very high, but I'd definately get lighter rods, as you intend. I have a hard time seeing the engine geometry alone killing your crank so quickly. Perhaps with the harder sleeves your crank is absorbing more force than usual. No point in speculating too much till you get it torn apart. I guess as far as which crank to go with, I'd wait till you get it apart to decide. You've already got a knife edged H23 crank, and if it's good I'd just put lighter/stronger H23 rods on there and be done with it. If you want to rev higher and possibly have greater reliability the F20 crank could definately be a fun project. You'd be reducing your intake charge in exchange for more revs. For street driving I'd go with what you've got, unless the crank is messed up. For 1/4 mile I'd like on the shorter stroke setup. Sounds like a fun setup to tinker with. Good luck with it.

satan_srv

Thanks... we used OEM honda bearings....the ecu would rev to 8500....but it was rarely taken to 8000 cause as you said the torque was amazing for the street.

I think you're right about the crank, I will have to see what the deal is...I hope it is okay, but if people agree the F20 would be an interesting project, I may just take it on...depending on the results of the tear down.

Boostless97Lude

here's what i was talking about

Pelican

You won't need squirters on forged pistons. The squirters are for stock, and when you race it, they don't even get that hot. Now if you road race, different story, but use the extra oil pressure for something else. No squirters.

1.72 is great for revs, no question. But there's more than just side-loading and piston to deal with
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=313565
Has one opinion and and a nice comparison

I think other stuff contributes more toward "rev limit." Rod bolts especially. Essentially, rod bolts are springs that are expanding and contracting every revolution. There comes a time where they can't contract back quickly enough. Also, how loose was the clearances on the Main and rod bearings? A looser clearance will produce more power.....and die more quickly. Its a tradeoff.
Spend the money of custom rods on a F20 crank on CARR rodbolts. They take a lot more abuse.

I commend you for taclking the H's. Too many parts/belts to be balanced.
--------------------------------------------Thanks to DonF

714

Im not attempting to sound like I know anything, because I understand about 45% of what is being discussed here, but I remember a thread about people having problem w/ their main bearings(?) when using the unortodox crank pulley. You may want to look into that as the possible cause of your problem. Just my .02

satan_srv

Yeah I've read that before...it will be easy to know that is the cause when we get the motor open, but it was balanced with the crank, we even took some material off it to balance with the crank....so that tells you how 'perfect' their tolerances are...


[Modified by satan_srv, 5:56 PM 10/25/2002]

DarkJedi

as i recall, the issue with the crankshaft pulley is not just with it being balanced, if you look at the stock pulleys they have a rubber insert (harmonic damper) im assuming to absorb vibration and put less shock on your internals, id imagine looking at the rubber insert microscopically probably crumpling like how slicks do, absorbing shock just like how drag slicks make it easier on the axles..

satan_srv

yes that too....at 10,000kms I doubt it is the cause...but it may have contributed...I'll update when I know.

But back to the topic. Anyone know of this F20 crank being attempted?