So here's the deal. I went to Washinton D.C. region to drive against some national guys and hopefully prove that I just choked at the national events (I have my ego to protect!! ). By the way... DC region holds a kick *** event. The course I drove was great with alot of variaty in it. Plus it was over 60 seconds for me and the rest of DSP (tho Mike said there was 59 out there).

DSP ran in the morning and we got 4 runs. Ok.. so here is where it gets a little fuzzy because the results havn't been posted yet. I ran (approx) 63.9xx, 62.7xx+OC, 62.3xx, 61.0xx+1 . My last run I drove the **** out of the car. I don't think it could have gone any faster. I'm not sure where I hit the cone( I never felt it) but at most maybe a tenth to not have hit that cone.

Mike Neary spun on his first ran. But then laid down three consecutivly faster runs, his fastest being 60.1xx. This was about 9/10ths faster then my HAIL MARY run. He was also saying he felt there was more out there. I just figured he had to be taking a MUCH better line then I was and that was it... He thrashed me at Rome.. Thrashed me in Topeka... and thrashed me on his home turf. I just figured... He's that much better (I'm coming for you next year mike!!! )... well the afternoon made me think otherwise. (not to say I'm faster then you Mike! )

Mike wanted to compare how our engines "pulled" because he thought he was loosing power. So he suggested we switch cars and run some fun runs in the afternoon. More runs? cool... so I agreed. I asked him about his pressures and told him mine then we got into setup details. our suspension setups were drasticly different. VERY different. So I figured this would be interesting to see Mike's opinion on my setup.

So we run 3 runs. My first run I got a too tail happy in the slalom and had to shut the car down (i missed a gate anyways). I was little more conservative and my second run. I botched entry into a sweeper and still pulled 61.4xx. I looped the car on my last run (sorry about the tires Mike!!) so no good time. Mike drives my car and think his times were something like 63.9, 62.5, 62.4? Not 100% sure. we switched cars and he spun his car and I ran 62.4 in mine... hmmmmm.

My Car :
Stock front sway bar
Comptech 22mm rear bar w/tie
front strut bar crap
500lbs front springs
400lbs rear springs
Koni single adjustables revalved for my springs.
Tires 36psi front amd 35psi rear

Mike's Car :
Maybe he'll tell you but I won't.

Other then the suspension differences that cars are VERY similiar... flywheel/I/H/E/LSD/Clutch/13" wheels/ hoosiers. My conclusions... Its tough to come up with any without looking at the results but... I'm guessing his car is about 1 to 1.5 seconds faster then mine on a 60 second course. So for any of you out there that want to just slap suspension on a car and call it fast... I beg you to reconsider. I'm still going over some ideas in my mind as to what is causing what... does my car not transition as well? does it not sweep as well?... all of the above? I didn't have to drive Mike's car nearly as hard to get the same times I was getting in my car. His car felt much more loose in the back then mine and had excellent turn in...

Well this just a start to my thoughts... to be continuued!!!

Edited to keep my ego in check... and some spelling



[Modified by Watkinsm3, 2:29 PM 10/21/2002]

 

I would love to see the results once you get them, post the links.

 

Slightly OT, but are you required to keep the stock suspension points in DSP? I'd be very interested to hear Mike's setup.

By the way, nice job kicking some vette *** (along with just about everybody else) at the last Nazareth event...

 

Angry Joe -
Yeah, you can't change stock mounting points. Mike and I discussed our setups but I don't want to go posting for the world to see unless he's comfortable with it (especially now that everyone knows its faster then mine ). I think he'll contribute it in the interest of discussion but we'll see.

Thanks about the Nazareth event! As I said before, that course was alot of fun but took alot of ***** to drive.

95GSRRacer -
I'll post the results as soon as I can!

 

I would guess that the difference in the turn in of either car could only be due to the amount of toe out because you both have the same rims and tires.

Keep us updated

 

Spring rates/sway bars will also effect turn in as far as I understand.


[Modified by Watkinsm3, 2:51 PM 10/21/2002]

 

That's right. Toe plays an important role in turn-in and rotation. I know Mike has H&R race springs with custom valved Konis and was sponsored by Koni-na at the Nationals. The H&R race springs have 583F/450R rates. This is what I got from H&R 2.5yrs ago. It may be different now..don't know. I believe that Koni may have put a lot of care into rebuilding & revalving Mike's shocks which could be another factor why his car is faster. I also don't know if he got the body shortened.. but until all that is revealed, I don't think we can accurately guess why Mike's car handles better and is faster in an auto-x course.

Again, I have come to learn that alignment settings also play a big role and I believe you told me Matt that you haven't done an alignment after you got your GCs.. so I would concentrate on that right now.

 

 

Thanks Harry. I understand the effects of Toe and turn in, but I think I'm actually running more toe then Mike is (if memory serves). Remember, I know his setup (for the most part), I just think it would be rude of me to go posting this and that about his setup with out him saying its ok.

I also believe you are wrong about what I told you about the alignments... I have had several alignments since the GC were installed. I would be a fool to go to Topeka without an alignment.

As for shocks : Though Mike did have his rebuild/revalve done by the actual constructor of his shocks. I find it difficult to believe that True Choice would have done that horrible of a job on my shocks that I would be that much slower and not feel the effects of poorly rebuilt/revalved shocks.

My belief is that all the differences lie in the actual configuration of spring rates/swaybars. Again this just my opinion.

You also may want to hold off before making assumptions like... ...and the other similar assumptions/statements you made in your post until you know the facts.





[Modified by Watkinsm3, 3:40 PM 10/21/2002]

 

I thought so but wasn't sure.

Have you thought of changing you springs to the same (secret) rates that Mike is running? This is something I have thought about testing as well.

 

Having driven his car...I would be lieing to say the thought hadn't crossed my mind. Unfortunatly there are some other ideas going through my mind that I can't seem to get rid of...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=307375
I think Mike's setup could be imporved upon.

P.S. I feel like I'm back in 6th grade with this "Secret Setup" talk...

 

Oh yeah, that post. I started to read that thread on my lunch break but then I realized I better save it for when I get home or else I might not be able to concentrate on my job.

Having not read through that long techical thread, please endulge me as to what would you do different then Mike's setup?

 

Do you want me to come out there and make the changes to your car too? I hear California's Nice this time of year! Anyways... I'm not sure exactly (hence the other thread), but I'm begining to think that a smaller or no rear sway bar may have good results with the proper spring rates (higher then Mike's in the rear). Still trying to figure out the sway bar's effect on wheel rate... again check out the other thread.

 

While at nationals I was talking with Dwayne Komush about the setup on the Capri and I was shocked to find out it runs relatively low spring rates. We didn't get into it in details of it but it was basicly a balance of the two helping each other. The reason I have to run such a big bar (23mm) to get my car to rotate is because my rear springs are only 336lb. If I were to up the rear rates then I could get the same amount of rotation with a smaller sway bar. In theroy I could raise the rates enough so that I didn't need a rear bar but then the suspension would bounce the car over every little rock on the course.

I believe the answer is some balance between the two.

 

Most important.

 

Say I run a heavy rear spring with no rear bar. Under transition you'll have the same approximate wheel rate as me. Hitting a bump in that situation is much worse then hitting a bump in a straight line no? plus... the only time a rear bar seems to be non-existant is when both wheels are in bump or rebound at the same time. one little rock is not going to send both wheels into bump at the same time. Personally I think swaybars (the rear more so then the front) are some what of street/track compromise. The front bar is a little more useful because I think if you are TOO stiff on the front springs this may hinder braking/acceration but you still want to maintain good transition. But then again... I'm still trying to figure this out!!!

 

I will dig up my Carrol Smith and Milken books and see if they have anything useful on this. I never even thought about running no rear swaybar, but if ride compliance isn't an issue it makes more sense. Notice, however that the Real Time Integras for example run massive rear swaybars. Of course they run insane spring rates too...

 

500/400 is liiight for a "heavy" DSP integra running race rubber.

On my STX Type R I run springrates almost twice what you are running in the rear, coupled with a 26mm Mugen rear bar. And that's on far less sticky rubber.

Loose = fast in a FWD car. No other way to look at it. Looping Mike's car should have told you that his is setup the way it needs to be.

Honestly, if the SEB would ever make my dreams come true and put the ITR into DSP, I'd be on at least 600/800 with my car, maybe more, depending.

 

Thanks for the Link/Post Matt I'm tagging along for the ride to learn more...

A.

 

I think everybody on H-T should be issued nametags so we know who we all are. I was there driving my crusty ol' white Firebird with the maroon driver's-side door. I told RacerMike I almost messed with your car thinking it was his car! Too many black 'Tegs! Ask him about the Jesus beads that were miracled into his front seat at the last FedEx autocross.

 

Well, I don't think its much of a secret regarding what I have under my car. Here is the basic setup:

Koni DA, custom valved (originally True Choice Stage 3 I believe)
ERS springs 600f/700r
zero toe all the way around
-1.9 degrees camber up front (I believe this may be too much)
-1.4 degrees camber in the rear (I believe this may be too much )
Stock front bar
22mm Skunkworks rear bar
13" Panasports with Hoosiers

Regarding camber, I really believe that my tire wear issue I've been suffering the past two years is a result of too much camber (about 30 runs on the front to cord on the inside with about 1/32 left in the outside depth hole). The question now is whether its from the rear or the front. I ran a pair of tires that were nearly corded on the rear of my car this Sunday and corded them; never thought to put the pyrometer on the rear tires, go figure. At any rate, probably too much camber all the way around.

As far as the rates go, I think I may be a bit soft in the rear and right now I am compensating with tire pressures to help it rotate. Last year when the front was softer I ran identical tire pressures at all 4 corners and the car rotated fine. If the car wasn't a daily driver I would probably go up 100lbs in the rear and try to lever the pressures out again. Right now I think my car handles very well, but I'm sure it could be improved. I'll mess with it in the off season and see what I can come up with.

Matt - to do without the rear bar you will have to go up in rate a lot; invest in a kidney belt if its your daily driver. I'm not saying your thinking is wrong; a certain Mark Daddio also subscribes to the no (or very small) rear bar theory. It was great being able to exchange cars for a few runs. I was really interested to see what the softer rear springs would do since I had considered trying this (at the prompting of Daddio). I think the Neon and Integra are just two different cars and IMHO the softer rear won't work, at least for me and how I drive. Which is another thing, everyone's setup will differ based on their driving style. What is really fast for me, won't be really fast for everyone. If someone who is not smooth drives my car they will NOT be fast.

I think an Integra can win DSP nationally but its really going to be course dependant. Next year I plan to try to add some more power and give the Capris, Bimmers and Fiat hell.

Mike




[Modified by RacerMike, 10:13 PM 10/21/2002]

 

I vote for H-T tattoos... across our foreheads. This was the suggestion I made last year after having a similar experience in TN...

 

Alright let me try and respond to everyone at once!!!

-Angry Joe
Actually it was Carrol Smith's lecture/Q 'n A in Topeka that originally put the "No bar/small Bar" idea in my mind. He seemed pretty certain (though he admits that this was the first autocross he attended), that sway bars were not the way to dial in these cars though they may need some bar depending in the car.

-Todd00
I agree with you 100% Todd, my spring rates are less then optimal. I was originally planning some changes for next year but after this past weekend I think the changes may be more drastic. The learning curve for me has been immense this is the end of my second season and choosing DSP as my first class has made things very difficult. Trying to learn how to setup a car AND drive it has been very challenging. I would not recommend my route to anyone... but... live and learn.

-1GreyTeg
Hey... you're always welcome to tag along! Hopefully everyone can get something out of this! That's why its here!

-SlowSER
I didn't even think to see if you were there (no offense ment by that! ) Its the same old thing after every event... I get on here and : "you were there?!?!" or "Why didn't you stop by and say hi?!?!" or something like that. S__t... name tags might work!

-Mike
I didn't think you're setup was "secret" Mike... Some people do, and have, gotten pissed when others blab so I figured I'd let you post the info. Thanks to you too for the swap... I don't think I've learned that much in a long time. It was amazing to see two similar cars behave very differently. Oh... I don't think I asked you this : Do you think my motor is stronger then yours? I know its difficult (especially with the loud-fart-pipe-factor) to judge by driving but I know that was something else you were interested in. Your car definitly requires more smoothness to drive fast but I think less effort overall then mine to achieve quick times. I guess I have a "Begininer" DSP car . I've been going over in my mind how the cars felt and what they did in the corners. Hmm... Next time I may have to drive your car on the street so I can figure out what I'm in for if I go high on the spring rates. Or maybe I'll contact Daddio and see what he thinks... hmmm.

-NEO
Across the forehead? I still think that may be too subtle for some of us.

 

Some of us were even wearing a Honda-Tech shirt. I would've said hi but every time I turned around you were embroiled in a conversation with Mike that looked uninterruptible.

 

LOL... Ok, I'm a little denser then most people. Maybe we need neon signs?

So I guess this goes back to my other thread... The interaction of springs&sway bar to come up with a optimal wheel rate. I wish I was an engineer...