Does it make a big handling difference that the front of my track only EG is lower than the rear?

On my Evo I always had a bigger wheel to fender gap in the front than in the back, as with that car the wisdom was that the suspension was designed to work that way, and that having a "down in the front" rake worsened handling.

Given that my EG is ridiculously nose-heavy, should I keep the front up out of the weeds as well?

Right now I have a 1" tire to fender gap in the rear, and no gap in the front (if anything the tire is a wee bit "tucked" into the front fender).

Opinions?

Thanks!

 

Having the rear slightly higher, makes the car turn better. It's another suspension tuning technique. Yes, sway bars and spring rates do the same but ride height also affect handling.

 

Don't measure tire to fender gap, measure ground to frame. Fender heights are not usually the same front to rear and therefore a poor measuring point for rake.

For people to help you more, you may want to find your ride height and the more experienced EG guys can tell you whether or not you're even within an acceptable range.

 

lowering the rear 1/2" more than the front will improve overall roll center/CG and weight transfer. less brake dive too

 

yea but how much can that hurt when accelerating out of a turn/straight? have you noticed what has been more beneficial at your tracks?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unrealwrc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea but how much can that hurt when accelerating out of a turn/straight? have you noticed what has been more beneficial at your tracks?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why do you think it would hurt?

 

just figured the transfer of weight to the rear could cause less weight on the front tires for acceleration (even though the front is loaded with the weight during the turn). this could limit the amount of acceleration out of the turn can't it? Don't get me wrong I want to try it cause it seems like a good idea, But I am just wondering if there are any downsides to this set-up?

I guess its force of habit to look at it for "lower" front for drag and "even" height for RR.

 

i was thinking for overall roll center characteristics. If you hit it right, the car can squat under braking - which on a more advanced brake/susp. setup be to your advantage.

And for less loading on the front tires at the exit of a turn i just see it as enough lateral grip. In my stock-powered car at track speeds and an LSD... I dont exceed the upper part of the circle of friction (like mohr's circle) like i could during braking.

wow that's hard to type in one broken sentence.

Make sense? i dunno maybe... im hungry

 

yea it makes sense and seems like a great idea. I might ahve 2 try it next year.

 

I found that in order to do that tho - the front will have to be raised a bit as opposed to being able to slam the rear. To avoid over-lowering on stock suspension arms and ground clearance and non-race spring rates up front.

edit 1:
oh - and my rear threads ran out. Going further down actually moves the threads up as opposed to moving the spring down since it sits on the tokiko spring perch holder thinggy around the shock

edit 2:

someone buy me some coilovers so i dont have to deal with this ****. I WANT PRELOAD!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unrealwrc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just figured the transfer of weight to the rear </TD></TR></TABLE>

Lowering the rear is NOT the same as adding weight to the rear. Think about it a bit.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECIntegra9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">someone buy me some coilovers so i dont have to deal with this ****. I WANT PRELOAD!</TD></TR></TABLE>

While I don't doubt your coilovers are crap ( ), why do you want preload? My springs droop 2-3 inches without load. It doesn't affect while I'm driving, but it makes changing tires a little harder. I never unload a spring while driving, except going over the jump at Grattan. All you do with preload is shorten the amount of shock travel available.

-Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Lowering the rear is NOT the same as adding weight to the rear. Think about it a bit.

-Chris</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was talking about weight transfer during braking/acceleration not static weight.

But doesnt weight transfer to the rear during acceleration? the reason front wants to pull up and rear squats down? same thing happens during hard braking to the front weight gets transfered more onto the front tires and off the rear? its not adding static weight to a sitting vehicle but transfering existing weight?

 

I raised the front of my car bout 1" last night, and it looks much nore reasonable now. I have a DE on Sunday, so I can report back my impressions.

I also attempted a driveway camber adjustment, which didn't turn out well, since I have -3.5 on one side now and -2 on the other. what sucks is you have to take the wheel off for every adjustemnt, guess at the movement, put the wheel back on and then measure. I'm gonna wear out my lugnuts before I have the sides equalized again... : sigh :

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unrealwrc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I was talking about weight transfer during braking/acceleration not static weight.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Weight transfer should be a function of center of gravity and wheelbase/track, and acceleration. Rake isn't important.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

While I don't doubt your coilovers are crap ( ), why do you want preload? My springs droop 2-3 inches without load. It doesn't affect while I'm driving, but it makes changing tires a little harder. I never unload a spring while driving, except going over the jump at Grattan. All you do with preload is shorten the amount of shock travel available.

-Chris</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well I dont have "coilover" - just sleeves and struts. But they droop a **** ton and I do drive on the street. It's not that it's a real big issue since i made my top hats (extend pretty far down the spring) they just slide back into place. But I just like when things are all tight and linked together because i get picky about that stuff. I just imagine my springs moving around like some booty in a shitty rap video. Visual aid lol.

Oh yeah and with our cars it's not going to drastically change things by adjusting the front/rear ride height different - but i do belive it "help"

or if it's a placebo it's workin

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECIntegra9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well I dont have "coilover" - just sleeves and struts. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Coilover- A suspension setup were the "coil" spring goes "over" the shock. So you do have a coilover suspension.

 

Doesnt lower or raising the vehicle change the center of gravity? Doesn't the center of gravity move when there is an uneven rake, compared to an even rake?

so say you drop a car evenly 1.5", that basicly means the center of gravity has shifted downward 1.5", when front is dropped 1.5" and back is 2" doesnt the center of gravity essentialy shift 1.55" down and .4" towards rear(would be less since I can't think of the caculation to use to compute the 3rd side of an uneven triangle, and I used shitty windows scientific calc) from its orginal location?.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Coilover- A suspension setup were the "coil" spring goes "over" the shock. So you do have a coilover suspension.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i know i know

i was just referring to a threaded shock body that is correctly linked with the springs and mounts.... Mine's separate and still consider it a mis-match.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unrealwrc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Doesnt lower or raising the vehicle change the center of gravity? Doesn't the center of gravity move when there is an uneven rake, compared to an even rake?

so say you drop a car evenly 1.5", that basicly means the center of gravity has shifted downward 1.5", when front is dropped 1.5" and back is 2" doesnt the center of gravity essentialy shift 1.55" down and .4" towards rear(would be less since I can't think of the caculation to use to compute the 3rd side of an uneven triangle, and I used shitty windows scientific calc) from its orginal location?.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

theoretically this seems correct but it's such a small difference that i could prolly achieve the same by moving my seat back a click.

The un-evenness really changes the overall roll center between the front and rear of the vehicle. The lines drawn between the front and rear suspension points and when you have a rake will move it and can change the characteristics based on what you want. Maybe some people dont need that as much. But my theory is that since i'm running a softer spring in the front and don't want to get any more dive under braking, which would add travel to the front outside wheel entering a corner. If i can tune a little bit of that out, i think that would be to my benefit with a softer spring... hmm kinda hard to explain

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECIntegra9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
theoretically this seems correct but it's such a small difference that i could prolly achieve the same by moving my seat back a click.

The un-evenness really changes the overall roll center between the front and rear of the vehicle. The lines drawn between the front and rear suspension points and when you have a rake will move it and can change the characteristics based on what you want. Maybe some people dont need that as much. But my theory is that since i'm running a softer spring in the front and don't want to get any more dive under braking, which would add travel to the front outside wheel entering a corner. If i can tune a little bit of that out, i think that would be to my benefit with a softer spring... hmm kinda hard to explain</TD></TR></TABLE>

true but all characteristics of the car can be changed by lowering the back. I see that beeing alot more beneficial for softer spring rates but I guess its about tuning the car to handle.

Now how does the lower rear effect the stiffer spring rates that don't flex as much? is it something all cars should try to do? why aren't all cars using the lower rear and how does it effect cars during/after the turn?

 

yes, as stated above,,,also how would that affect turn in?

im looking for all I can get

 

I'll have to talk again with our good friend and race engineer about that a little more. His triumph spitfire was designed very very well (independent rear end completely re-worked, inboard brakes, data acquisition.... etc) Has more knowledge from doing and using these types of setups and variables than anyone I know. If anything relevant comes from the convo. after a case of beer i'll try and post it up. I'm curious as well what this compromises - because nothing on a car is that simple without compromising something else in return... unfortunately.

 

... my sentiments exactly