i cant seem to find a a straight answer on this subject. i have 94 gsr with the basic bolt-ons. some people say that the vtec x-over is at 4400 rpm and the secondary runners in the intake manifold open at 5850 rpm and thats what is confused as the vtec x-over. so when i replace my stock intake manifold with a skunk 2 unit will that noise at 5850 rpm go away. becuase i think i hear something at 4400 rpm but its real hard to tell. plus i want to rechip my ecu with a spoon or mugen program but those have vtec x-overs at like 5200-5500 rpm. so why would those chip programs raise the vtec x-over almost 1000 rpm? any good info would be greatly appreciated because im confused as hell. thanks

 

Ok, I apologize if I sound like a dick...but why do you care when your vtec kicks in? As long as it's working, then everything is fine. If you want to make it kick in when you want to, get a vtec controller. I believe when you chip or get an aftermarket manifold, it disables the secondary butterflies so you just have vtec engagement, don't quote me though..

 

well thats part of my thinking is that i might just be better to get a vtec controller instead of a rechipped ecu. and im want to know when my vtec kicks in because no one really seems to know so now its like a mission to figure it out

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mesonerz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i cant seem to find a a straight answer on this subject. i have 94 gsr with the basic bolt-ons. some people say that the vtec x-over is at 4400 rpm and the secondary runners in the intake manifold open at 5850 rpm and thats what is confused as the vtec x-over. so when i replace my stock intake manifold with a skunk 2 unit will that noise at 5850 rpm go away. becuase i think i hear something at 4400 rpm but its real hard to tell. plus i want to rechip my ecu with a spoon or mugen program but those have vtec x-overs at like 5200-5500 rpm. so why would those chip programs raise the vtec x-over almost 1000 rpm? any good info would be greatly appreciated because im confused as hell. thanks </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm pretty sure that the secondary butterflies open at around 4.8k, and vtec engages around 5.8k as you mentioned. The butterflies opening makes a louder sound at engagement, so it doesn't seem vtec is engaging as it should be.

 

You pretty much said when your vtec kicks in in your first post...

 

Stock B18C1:
VTEC 4400 RPM
IAB 5750 RPM


A single runner intake manifold will eliminate the noise chhange at 5750 RPM.
A chipped ECU is superior to a VTEC controller, as it can properly control VTEC, fuel, and ignition maps. VTEC controllers only modify the VTEC crossover and the MAP sensor input to foll the ECU into doing something else.

 

thanks for the replies but already there are two different answers in this thread. the mystery continues.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mesonerz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the replies but already there are two different answers in this thread. the mystery continues. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Trust the Dogg. I don't think these numbers are correct. I know that they are. There is no mystery.

 

thanks dogg

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by awdgsx96 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm pretty sure that the secondary butterflies open at around 4.8k, and vtec engages around 5.8k as you mentioned. The butterflies opening makes a louder sound at engagement, so it doesn't seem vtec is engaging as it should be.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wrong. Please try not to post an answer unless you're absolutely certain, otherwise it just continues the spread of of false information. Dogginator is right, he's always right from what I've noticed.

 

OK SO VTEC @ 4400 RPM
SO WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF RAISING THE VTEC X-OVER POINT WITH A DIFFERENT CHIP?

 

The purpose of the stock manifold is to keep mid range and low end torque while still making high RPM power. Honda failed. I'll tell you why.

The GSR makes good mid range and low end even without the shitty 2 stage manifold design.

The reason VTEC engages so low is to implement the shitty GSR trans. The gearing SUCKS and it makes me want to punch a baby.

With that being said:

The trans puts the engine WAY out of it's power band when you shift from 1st to 2nd. The stock manifold keeps a certain amount of restriction so that you still make good mid range power. If they would have just put a better trans in there (like the ITR gearing), they wouldn't have needed to add all the butterfly and dual stage manifold garbage.

The butterflies make much more noise than the 4400 VTEC crossover. The butterflies opening at 6k is what most people hear.

I have a 99 GSR with a skunk2 manifold. Your VTEC cross over will still be around 4400-4500 (stock). The butterflies will be gone..so there will be no noises heard at 6k. You will BARELY hear VTEC unless you have an exhaust. Then you can kinda sorta hear it.

People argue that the manifold does away with your low and midrange and it's a huge difference blah blah. It's not. I could barely tell ANY difference in low and mid range. The difference is that there is more high end. There will be a more dramatic pull in the high end...so people assume they lost low end and mid range.

There's really not any HUGE low end or mid range to start with even with the stock manifold design. But it is sufficient to get you where you wanna go.

You dont use low or mid range when you're trying to go fast (once you get past 2nd gear). Even with the SKUNK2 manifold, the B18C1 still has enough lugging power to get you to the grocery store comfortably for when you're NOT trying to go fast. Going stop light to stop light is when you need mid range. The motor still has plenty of it with either manifold. So no worries.

After you get the manifold, instead of getting a spoon or mugen ECU, get a VAFC or hondata and tune the car. Do raise your VTEC point to 5500.

When you shift from 1st to 2nd, it's the most dramatic RPM change. You should still be at around 5500 after a redline shift in 1st.

VTEC operating so damn low is what creates a torque loss anyway. If VTEC was at 5500, the engine would feel better in the mid range.


So to recap: I think it all originates from the shitty gearing. If VTEC was set at an ITR style 5800, the engine would drop out of VTEC when you shifted from 1st to 2nd. So honda probably decided to guinea pig the dual stage manifold design. VTEC hitting at 4500 would cause massive torque loss. So they put in a restrictive primary air passage. This keeps the torque somewhat on an even keel. Then, at 6k, when the engine is ready to make power, the butterflies open and the manifold becomes larger in volume.

A better geared trans that put the engine at 6k and above on redline shifts would have eliminated the issue. The ITR trans or the B16A trans is a huge bang for your buck mod on the GSR.

 

supposedley its the harder the higher from what i hear but dont quote me

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by denraweb &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, I apologize if I sound like a dick...but why do you care when your vtec kicks in? As long as it's working, then everything is fine. If you want to make it kick in when you want to, get a vtec controller. I believe when you chip or get an aftermarket manifold, it disables the secondary butterflies so you just have vtec engagement, don't quote me though..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because you can change your power band and fuel tuning and VTEC point for a nicer power band. If you want somethin to change, you have to know where you started.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by awdgsx96 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm pretty sure that the secondary butterflies open at around 4.8k, and vtec engages around 5.8k as you mentioned. The butterflies opening makes a louder sound at engagement, so it doesn't seem vtec is engaging as it should be.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Other way around. VTEC @ 4500ish. Butterflies at 6k ish.

Butterflies make the louder sound. It happens at 6k. Most GSR owners have no idea when VTEC happened.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18c1ej8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">supposedley its the harder the higher from what i hear but dont quote me</TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct. But not beneficial to just raise the hell out of it.

 

gsr vtec is so wack compared to itr vtec.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So to recap: I think it all originates from the shitty gearing. If VTEC was set at an ITR style 5800, the engine would drop out of VTEC when you shifted from 1st to 2nd. So honda probably decided to guinea pig the dual stage manifold design. VTEC hitting at 4500 would cause massive torque loss. So they put in a restrictive primary air passage. This keeps the torque somewhat on an even keel. Then, at 6k, when the engine is ready to make power, the butterflies open and the manifold becomes larger in volume.

A better geared trans that put the engine at 6k and above on redline shifts would have eliminated the issue. The ITR trans or the B16A trans is a huge bang for your buck mod on the GSR.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

and to quote several people on HT, "B serious is entirely correct."

 

MAN THIS THREAD HAS BEEN VERY INFORMATIVE THUS FAR... I WILL ADMITT MY WHOLE LOGIC HAS BEEN BACKWARDS, I THOUGHT SECONDARY RUNNERS WERE AT 4400 AND VTEC @ 5800....I ALSO THOGHT THE LOWER THE VTEC THE BETTER OFF...SO IT SOUNDS LIKE IM BETTER OF FINDING A BETTER TRANNY AND A VAFC AND TAKE TO THE DYNO AND SEE WHERE IM AT.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mesonerz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">MAN THIS THREAD HAS BEEN VERY INFORMATIVE THUS FAR... I WILL ADMITT MY WHOLE LOGIC HAS BEEN BACKWARDS, I THOUGHT SECONDARY RUNNERS WERE AT 4400 AND VTEC @ 5800....I ALSO THOGHT THE LOWER THE VTEC THE BETTER OFF...SO IT SOUNDS LIKE IM BETTER OF FINDING A BETTER TRANNY AND A VAFC AND TAKE TO THE DYNO AND SEE WHERE IM AT.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hondata works well too. Better than a VAFC. I dont think it's much more, either.

B16A trans FTW. Cheap and effective. No LSD, though.

 

THANKS ALOT B SERIUOS

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mesonerz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">THANKS ALOT B SERIUOS </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I'm not going to cover each and every inaccuracy in this. Please look at some dyno plots. With the stock cams, a Skunk2 IM on a B18C1 is pointless. Notice that Skunk does not show a dyno of just their IM with stock GSR cams. Also notice that their dyno does not include data below 4000 RPM, where the dual runner IM has the biggest advantage. The stock dyno plot looks stock, the other two are tuned as well.



I'll go for the opposite camp: B serious is entirely wrong.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dogginator &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm not going to cover each and every inaccuracy in this. Please look at some dyno plots. With the stock cams, a Skunk2 IM on a B18C1 is pointless. Notice that Skunk does not show a dyno of just their IM with stock GSR cams. Also notice that their dyno does not include data below 4000 RPM, where the dual runner IM has the biggest advantage. The stock dyno plot looks stock, the other two are tuned as well.



I'll go for the opposite camp: B serious is entirely wrong. </TD></TR></TABLE>

lol. No. I'm always right...cuz if i'm not, then a lot of people are wrong.

Anyway, I have personal experience with the stock manifold and the skunk2 manifold. There's not a huge change in low end. There's not a huge change in top end (with stock everything else). A lot of people make it out to be that the skunk2 manifold makes the car completely undriveable and ridiculously boggy. I'm saying that the power doesn't start till 6k on a stock B18C1 anyway. When you're going fast, you're concerned with making power where the trans puts you after a redline shift. I.E. top end.

Since the bottom end driveability isn't affected by much...but the top end is improved by a little, I'd say it's an advantageous part.

You can always build from there, too. I'm not saying that it'd be an earth shattering experience to just slap the S2 manifold on to a stock engine.

 

Why are people still buying the Skunk manifold, is there anything is does better than the Performer X ? Like anything at all?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by idrivesideways &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why are people still buying the Skunk manifold, is there anything is does better than the Performer X ? Like anything at all?</TD></TR></TABLE>

$$$$$

 

maybe i should start a new thread stating all the mods i want to do my gsr and see if its a proven set-up