I need someone to scan for me locally, and I'll post up the plots.

I spent 2 hours tuning again.

Stock itr head and block, headgasket, compression, etc.
Toda spec B's
Toda gen 2 cam gears
toda valve springs
aem cai
apexi vafc
custom exhaust dump/ test pipe
stock catback
Cam gears at +15/-5, 18 degrees of timing, and ~13.5:1 a/f ratio. I tuned my best for each set of header/ test pipe/ exhaust combinations...


Here's the results (SAE corrected):

RUN 29 - hytech header with test pipe closed and running through stock catback = 184whp/ 130.4wtq.

RUN 20 - toda header (open header) = 189whp/ 130wtq.

RUN 31 - hytech header (open header) = 189whp/ 130wtq.


BUT: Peak numbers do not tell the whole story!!!

From 5k rpms to redline, the open header runs gain anywhere from 10-15, and 10+wtq. No losses ANYWHERE IN THE RPM BAND when running open header. Again, this is tuned the best I could in that short amount of time... I tried +15/-5, +10/-5, and +5/-5..... I lost up to 15whp going anything other than the extreme advance on the intake cam, and this was mostly in the midrange..... Weird, I know, but hey; it's what the motor liked. It also like closer to 14:1 rather than 12:1 for some reason and made more power the leaner it got... Temperature is roughly 80 degrees and 80% humidity. I was gonna try new plugs (these ones are 13k old), and then new hks iridiums, but ran out of time. Oh well. I hope you guys enjoyed it. Toda header seems to be very even with the hytech header on stock compression. When I raise compression and maybe go with a bigger bore or bottom end, I'll do some more testing.


[Modified by Black R, 12:30 AM 6/23/2002]

 

humidity sucks! been raining here all day, arghh.

 

sounds good ken!

-jeff, who does not have a working scanner

 

they just pulled my cylinder head and my rockers are totally worn with those Toda B cams. In fact, it's so bad that all of the rockers have to be replaced...not cheap I can tell you. Those Toda B's are bad news all around. Not only do they flap timing belts and make you purchase higher compression, ...they also wear out your rockers prematurely...buyer beware...

 

What would you reccomend other than Toda Bs? It seems like the majority on this board swear by them, so I am very interested to hear a different opinion.

 

What would you reccomend other than Toda Bs? It seems like the majority on this board swear by them, so I am very interested to hear a different opinion.

 

If I had to do it again? probably A's or Skunk2 Stage 2's. You don't hear about flapping belts and 12:1 CR requirements with them.

It's no co-incidence that the Toda forged pistons are 12.3:1 minimum out of the box for the DC2 using a stock head gasket.....Their cams dictate that much CR for you to see the numbers they expect for their engine package or combination.....if anyone thinks that less than 12:1 CR is optimal with B cams, please explain to me why....

Last point, just because Lip, sgt, cheetah get Toda products under sponsorship or at a discount does not mean that they are the be all and end all. That may be blasphemous here but if you want to see 200 whp and a fat powerband, there are several other cams which can do the same...


[Modified by Michael Delaney, 3:57 PM 6/22/2002]

 

yea... ok... whatever

Will
-who has never seen worn "Toda used" rockers

 

thanks for doing the test BTW. That's good header info to add to the cumulative knowledge here. So how does the Toda header do from 5000-6500 rpm where the HyTech's added length should be an advantage? As you say, powerband width and the rate of torque rise are as important as peak whp. How fast you get to peak is the issue isn't it?

 

Excuse me but I don't know how to interpete that comment. Are you calling me a liar? Or is it just the fact that you have never seen it mean that it does not exist?
Or are you implying I installed them incorrectly? I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying flapping belts don't happen and CR increases are not needed with these cams as well?

Tuan

who hates being called a liar and likes asking 20 questions



[Modified by Michael Delaney, 3:56 PM 6/22/2002]

 

Interpetation This is a thread about dyno results on a car that used different headers... not a post about the wear that Toda cams may or may not have caused on your motor.

If I were to call you a liar I would have said "Toda cams did not wear your rockers"... or something to the like.

I am saying (in the wrong thread) that the Toda cams that I have installed (several sets) and have serviced after some milage have 'never' shown any rocker wear what so ever.
The 'flapping belt syndrome' is quite common with Toda camshafts. If they are installed correctly... the belt will not flap. Compression increases are never needed/required with any cam install. The increase in power with the increase in compression is a wonderful way to gain extra power from a different cam setup... but it is never 'needed'.

Will
-who thought this was a header post...

 

i paid for my toda products. all of them. I did however get them at a decent price. Mike....If i didn't believe in them...i would have bailed on them a long time ago. I think I'm entitled to my opinion on them. The whole toda sponsorship thing is pretty much my allowing them to use my car for promotion purposes. As a matter of fact...they asked me if they could since it made the power it did using their products.

I do however have an opinion of the use of Toda cams.

Toda-A's street
Toda-B's street/but i think you should be racing with thier midrange powerband
Toda-C's...you really should have them on the track. The speed bug is cool...but these cams at WOT eat gas. Most of us are a bit hard on our cars.....and personally i think its cool to have power....but hell..you can get power out of A's. C's? Now that i've gone through a few sets of Toda(NONE WORN OR ANY WORN ROCKERS) i think i would have just done A's for a street car. Look at Steve. 207whp with A's. Stock itr non vtec lobes for daily use. what more you want?

oh..the headers. Now up the compression on those bad boys and add some fuel and air. Then tell me what you think. good luck on the future test. both are nice but you'll see the seperation later.

 

nothing is ever drop in. Look at the lobes on the toda cams, of course there going to rip some timing belts, they are putting out some heavy pressure, but alot of the belts ripping are also due to already worn and over-tightened timing belts. As far as the rockers go, they are going to take abuse, but mine are fine even after 15,000 miles with JUN III. Im a JUN man but toda cams are great also. I wouldnt ditch them.

 

How were the powerbands compared to your old powerbands? I thought you hit those same numbers prior to the open header.

 

Sorry guys, this post REALLY peaks my interest since I plan on doing Cams this winter and this Really seems to be volatile.


T.

Did You do the install? And how long ago did you do 'em? I have a close friend that has experienced some nice gains overall AND has switched from the Spoon Header to the Toda, "Just to stay On Topic!" Has anyone tried the Spoon header as a comparison with the B's as compared to the Toda header?


Again, I am just a fly on the wall and learning. Thanks for this info.

Good and better luck to you all,


A.


[Modified by 1GreyTeg, 6:19 PM 6/22/2002]

 

I looked at Kenny's plots today (while trying out the latest super-secret JDM mod ) and it looked to me like the Toda one was just SLIGHTLY better...maybe this would change after raising compression and headwork.

 

Those are great numbers kenny.

 

Can someone post the plot

 

This is a long shot.. but making the best power at 15 degrees of advance sounds to me like the timing belt could be off a tooth or two.. anyone else agree?

 

.....I've been through this before on many threads.

b18cxR and Willard have both seen/ inspected this setup. Let's ask their opinion if they think the cam gears are off a tooth or two.....

 

I'm not questioning your install... 15 degrees is just a shitload of advance...

 

I'm not questioning your install... 15 degrees is just a shitload of advance...

 

I think he might be asking if its simulating being a tooth off by that much advance.. I know you've been over it a bunch.

Yah, its more the likely "simulating" a tooth or two off... but hey, its a dyno proven plot. GOHD.

 

woow , big difference .. have you finish the set up yet?

 

No surprise here. I've said this before though.

No surprise here either. This is why i dont tune for A/F ratio on NA cars. Why?
It doesnt matter that much. You tune for whatever the motor wants(within reason)
and not what you THINK is the "perfect" a/f ratio.