<u>Background:</u> Car was running great, but then died today and wouldn't start back up. Starter turns engine over, but doesn't start - sputtered a bit like it was going to start for a few tries, but eventually lost all signs of sputtering life. Was in stop and go traffic and I let the clutch out a bit too fast from a stop, so not sure if I stalled it or it just died. However, a month ago it took a few tries to start after sitting 2 hours, and a couple weeks ago it died in the middle of an autocross at 4k rpm, although I thought that might have been b/c of fuel starvation b/c I was running very low on fuel.

Sounds like a main relay problem but it seems to be working. When touching it I feel a click when I turn the key to "ON", the 2nd click 2 seconds later, and 3rd click when I try to start it. I took it out and the solders appear to be ok, but it's hard to tell with my untrained eye. Could the main relay still be the culprit if it's clicking like it is?

In many of the threads I've read, people think it could be the fuel pump but that usually isn't the case. Would the pump just not prime like this if the pump was dead? I have been running 47psi at idle with my Crower cams, which is way higher than the 31-36psi stock and I have 79k miles, 40k of them at that high psi.

I've also read it could be the thermostat ground wire - where is that located? Also going to try replacing my valvecover ground wire because it's a little frayed.

Fuses are ok. In some of the Civic threads they talk about an "alternator solenoid" or "starter solenoid" fuse causing this problem, but I can't find a similarly-named fuse in my Integra.

Other possibilities range from ignitor coil (have a new one, but at parents' house), distributor, and any assortment of loose wires/grounds. I'm hopeless with my multimeter (at parents' house also) so I'm hoping I can troubleshoot this without trying to fumble my way around with that.

Please help... a nice long weekend camping trip is turning into stuck at home waiting for the long weekend to end so I can get some parts if I don't figure this out today! Thanks.

 

are you sure its fuel related and not spark .

to totally rul eout fuel just run a wire from the batt to the fuel pump hook up (the positive side) and listen for the pump. mabye pull of a line to verifiy its putting out fuel. if pump is making sound but noting is coming out you have a clogged filter (depends on where you pull the line to check ), or you have no gas (seriously it happens guages dont always read correct for ever )

if fuel and all checks out have a freind turn the car on and listen for the pump , if no pump then you know its the main relay .

 

The fuel pump isn't priming, so I need to work that out before delving into whether it's getting spark or not.

 

I think the bad solder joints in the main relay are such that it'll click, but it won't switch power on. So just because it clicks doesn't prove it.

Look for good power coming out of the main relay. If ok, then check to see whether the wiring is actually supplying that power all the way back to the pump. Check voltages each step, so you determine exactly where the circuit is broken.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the bad solder joints in the main relay are such that it'll click, but it won't switch power on. So just because it clicks doesn't prove it.
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Really? If true that is good news, because this sounds like a main relay problem.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Look for good power coming out of the main relay. If ok, then check to see whether the wiring is actually supplying that power all the way back to the pump. Check voltages each step, so you determine exactly where the circuit is broken.
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Argh checking voltages makes me cringe... I'm terrible with electrics and my multimeter is up at my parents' house. My sister has an '01 Integra and lives close by, I may just try to borrow her car this weekend and swap out her main relay to see if that solves it.

If the fuel pump is bad, will it still prime or not?

 

Any answers to these questions would help me immensely... need to know in the next 4 hours as it effects my whole game plan for the weekend (have to get 40mi round trip ride from parents to dealer, closed Sun-Mon).

Could the main relay still be the culprit if it's clicking as described above?
Would the pump still prime or make noise if it was dead?
Where is the thermostat ground wire located?
If it's the fuel pump, can I use a stock GS-R fuel pump on my LS?

 

If the fuel pump does NOT prime, the problem could be the main relay, or the pump, or the wiring inbetween. So a running pump would prove all of that's OK. If you find that the pump primes every time, reliably, then you should look elsewhere for the real reason it doesn't start.

Swapping a main relay from your sister's car sounds like a good thing to try.

The main relay could still be the problem, even if it's clicking. The wires going into the main relay are OK. The actual solenoid inside is OK, and clicking. But the wiring that sends actual power out to the fuel pump has the bad solder joint...

If the pump itself is the problem, you can sometimes get it to start by banging on the fuel tank. The explanation is that there's several (6?, 12?) poles in the motor & one is burned out. If it happens to coast to a stop at the burned-out pole, then it won't run until something nudges it over to the next one. Pretty random & unpredictable. And rapping on the tank doesn't work so good on Hondas, where the pump is mounted from the top of the tank.

The "thermostat ground wire" is the term for a bundle of ground wires that are attached to one bolt of the thermostat housing. Several critical ground wires (like for the ECU itself) are grounded here. It's not really a ground wire FOR THE thermostat. The actual thermostat is not an electrical device at all.

GSR has higher fuel pressure vs. LS, but they may use the same pump? I don't know... It may be that the different fuel pressure is simply from the FPR.

 

Before you consider swapping out the fuel pump, check the fuel level in the tank. On the Integra tank, the pump is NOT mounted at the very top of the tank. So if your tank is full, you'll get a gallon or 3 gushing out the hole when you unbolt the pump. Surprise!!!

 

You rock!! Thanks a lot for all that info. Much of the info I've been reading on the main relay seems to say that if it clicks at the right times, it's fine, but it makes more sense to me that if the solders were defunct, it would still click but not send power. Thanks also for the heads up on the gas level... I have about 1/4-1/5th of a tankful so I should be good to go thankfully.

The GS-R fuel pump is actually different and flows at 131lph, as opposed to 80lph for the LS pump. Supposedly the GS-R pump is the same as ITR and B16 Civic Si. It would be nice to upgrade the pump to one that flows ~60% higher than my LS pump anyway, since my fuel pressure is a good 40% above stock.

Will be borrowing my sister's car at 7 tonight to test her main relay, and the valve cover ground wire and whatever else I can find if that doesn't fix it. Crossing my fingers real hard that it's the relay.

 

I replaced the fuel main relay just now with my sister's '01 Integra's operational main fuel relay and it still didn't fix the problem. The fuel pump does not prime like it's supposed to when I switch the ignition to ON.

Pretty sure I found the thermostat ground wire and it's solid. I also replaced my valve cover ground wire with my sister's (mine's a little bit frayed but mostly solid) and that didn't work.

My next option is the fuel pump and I'm probably going to buy a GS-R one used locally, hopefully tomorrow. I still haven't found an answer to my question though - if the fuel pump is dead, would that cause it to not prime or make any kind of sound when the ignition is switched to ON? I really wish I had my multimeter, but it's up at my parents' house. ARGH!!

 

Sent pm

 

thats why i siad to jump the fuel pump before doing anythign , it eliminates it as a possibility.

so like i had siad . take a long wire (if you have an amp in the car you have a wire back there already.) and hook it to the positive on the fuel pump plug (under rear seat i think ) and listen for it . if there is still nothing then replace fuel pump . if it works it could be the wiring in the factory harness .

 

Thanks for the help. I will be testing the pump on Monday when I have my multimeter.

 

back probe the connection at the fuel pump, turn the key on and see if you are getting source voltage to the pump harness. I would then test the resitance at the fuel pump and get back to us.

 

Thanks for the help everyone! I opened up the fuel pump access panel and tested for voltage to the fuel pump, and I am getting power to it. So it's safe to say my fuel pump is toast, no? At any rate, I'm going to get a hold of a GS-R/ITR/Civic Si pump hopefully tomorrow because running 40% higher fuel pressure than stock, if it's not the problem it's a good idea to replace it anyway. Let's hope this solves it!

 

Yeah, if you get power back there but the pump doesn't run... that almost proves it's a bad pump.

The only other possibility is bad wiring from there down into the tank to the pump motor itself. You'll get a chance to check that when you pull the pump out.

 

AAAAARRGHGH!!!

I replaced the non-priming stock LS pump with a brand new '99-00 Civic Si pump. Wiring clip was a bit of a tight fit, but it did fit and snap into place. Reinstalled, cycled the ignition to ON a few times and the pump primed each time... sweet!! Right? Well, no...

Since my batt. was near dead by now, I got a jump start. It would run for a few seconds, esp. at higher rpms, but as it got below 1500rpm it would sputter out and die. It did this a few times, and after that, the fuel pump stopped priming at all when I turn the ignition to ON. I tested the plug under the access panel again and I am getting power to the pump. But it's not priming at all anymore, when it did the first few times. WTF IS GOING ON?!?! The wires between the plug under the access panel and connecting to the pump itself appear to be fine, but it's hard to say for sure. Should I do the same test for voltage at connector to the pump body itself? I am so lost, confused, and frustrated!! I don't even want take it to a dealer b/c I'd have to tow it a good 20 miles to the nearest one.

 

is start checking the grounds at the batt, motor, and around the fuel pump connections .


again to figure out if its a suplly problem , run 2 wires from the pump to the battery .

+ and - and see how long the car runs for , if it still sputters out then its time ot look elsewhere.

 

Can someone describe in very simple layman's terms, step by step, how to check the ground? I am hopeless with testing electrical stuff and it doesn't mean much to test things if I'm not even sure what to do or if what I'm doing is correct. Thanks

 

Common problems that keep the fuel pump from priming:

#1: Cracked solder joints inside the main relay
#2: Leaky capacitors within the ECU


Your car is a '98 which makes it a PERFECT candidate for ECU failure. I used to have a write-up on how to fix your ECU and what to buy from DigiKey, but it was deleted along with my last username

Anyway, step 1 for troubleshooting: open up the ECU and smell the circuit board. If it smells like sour vagina and/or rotten seafood, then your ECU is bad.

Here's a little something to get you started:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1165452

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Semtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Common problems that keep the fuel pump from priming:

#1: Cracked solder joints inside the main relay
#2: Leaky capacitors within the ECU


Your car is a '98 which makes it a PERFECT candidate for ECU failure. I used to have a write-up on how to fix your ECU and what to buy from DigiKey, but it was deleted along with my last username

Anyway, step 1 for troubleshooting: open up the ECU and smell the circuit board. If it smells like sour vagina and/or rotten seafood, then your ECU is bad.

Here's a little something to get you started:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1165452
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sweet, thanks man. What makes my '98 a perfect candidate? Just because it's 9 years old, or because that specific year was more problematic. Also, will it smell like sour vagina (my g/f LOL'd at that) at any time when I pull it out, or will I need to try to start it a few times, then pull it out and smell?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White98LS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Sweet, thanks man. What makes my '98 a perfect candidate? Just because it's 9 years old, or because that specific year was more problematic. Also, will it smell like sour vagina (my g/f LOL'd at that) at any time when I pull it out, or will I need to try to start it a few times, then pull it out and smell?</TD></TR></TABLE>

'98 makes it perfect because the mid to late 90's cars (including mine) seem to have this problem, now that they're about 10 years old.

You don't need to power up the ECU. Just pull off the metal cover and take a whiff. You'll know exactly what I'm talking about. But even if it doesn't smell, you still might have failing capacitors. Try swapping in a healthy ECU and see if it fixes the problem.

 

or run 2 wires from the battery and rule out the fuel pump/connection for good ........

i had a main go in my integra 2 days ago . it would star run then die out .

but i knew 100% it was the main realy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Semtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

'98 makes it perfect because the mid to late 90's cars (including mine) seem to have this problem, now that they're about 10 years old.

You don't need to power up the ECU. Just pull off the metal cover and take a whiff. You'll know exactly what I'm talking about. But even if it doesn't smell, you still might have failing capacitors. Try swapping in a healthy ECU and see if it fixes the problem.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll try that when I get home from work. If the ECU is faulty, wouldn't I not get power to the fuel pump connector though?

Maybe it is the ECU - I used to have kill switches and the extra wiring after a couple years caused my fuel pump fuse to keep blowing. I replaced the fuse with a higher amperage fuse (which sometimes blew, too) to get me by for a little bit before I took out the switches altogether. That sounds like a boneheaded move that could cause the ECU burn-out you speak of, no?

 

Eh, I'd rather not have to think about capacitor theory right now (mainly because I'm pissed that my write-up was deleted). There are about 5 voltage regulating capacitors in the ECU that can go bad and cause all sorts or weird problems. As a general trouble-shooting measure, I'd just swap in a good ECU and see if that fixes the problem.

If not, the 3rd most common problem IMO is loose grounds (as previously mentioned). Check your thermostat ground first, since it only takes a second.