almost forgot we have a competition forum!

im refering to my link in the type r forum: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=186906

basically is it REALLY dangerous to go on a track? (please see given link.)

comments, suggestions welcomed and appreciated. TIA

 

nah i dont think track is really dangerous, unless u do something really really stupid.

 

im not afraid of doing stupid stuff, im afraid of others doing stupid things

 

well, watch out other driver is also a part of safe driving, i think most of the reason for accident is becuase of the driver or other driver think they are best of the world. if u are careful, watch out for everything(not only see stright) then its pretty safe.

 

You better be afraid of both yourself AND others. I would say 99% of all driving school incidents are single car accidents.

Warren

 

agreed

 

basically, i am not concerned about myself. If I get in a accident myself, its my own fault.... (you really have to pull a stupid stunt)....and that I am willing to accept...

its the other drivers i'm concerned about...so can someone tell me something useful about this supposidly "rare" event should it happen?

lets say someone takes a turn too fast behind you and decides to plow right into your car...

yeah, you can say that you saw it coming, but really ....

how would this kind of incident be handled?

cant anyone answer my question?! Basically i'm asking a quesiton about other drivers and instead i'm getting replies like "you'll be safe no matter what because if your smart you can avoid other bad drivers....etc" ...which is not very helpful right now.. i want to find out exactly what kind of rules are in place to deal with these situations... thats all. I appreciate all your help so far, but its been somewhat off topic.


[Modified by 00-0187, 7:20 AM 5/16/2002]

 

Actually the answers that have been given are not off topic. The answer is: you are mostly responsible. On eof the things you are learning about in a HPDE is HOW to handle yourself and your car in unusual circumstances.

After having participated in these types of events for close to 30 years, I would agree with most people here - MOST accidents are single car accidents. Since that is the case, the few people who have been involved in multiple car accidents usually paid out of thier own pockets to have their cars and the other car fixed.

You asked is track driving is really dangerous. My personal opinion is that I'd rather drive on track with people who have the same (relative) awareness than driving on an Interstate where you know there are people who are clueless about themselves and their cars.

 

I agree 100% with Elyse... I'd much rather be on track than the public roads. Nobody on track is reading the newspaper, putting on make-up, talking on the cell phone, eating, etc. Everyone's paying attention to what they are doing. The downside to the track vs the public roads is that I'm not going to ask my insurance company be responsible for damage to my car at the track. In my opinion, that is not what they are insuring me for.

To answer your question about what happens in an incident... It's a sort of "gentleman's" understanding that if you damage another person's car, you pay for it to be repaired. There is nothing in the rules that states that though, so it's really up to the parties involved how they handle it.

That said, I've done 32 events since June 99 (61 days on track) and have only seen 1 metal-to-metal contact. A Supra lost his brakes and swiped an Escort. All other car damage has been a result of the driver, or occationally oil/anti-freeze/etc down on the track.

Nobody can guarentee that you'll always come away from the track unscathed. Most of us believe that if you drive on track long enough, you're eventually going to hit something. (I hit a tire wall Feb 01.) Incidents happen, but to me the risk is worth it. You have to decide if the risk is worth it to you.

Edit - One more thing... Most insurance companies will cover a track incident once (since it's *technically* a school), then drop you, or raise your rates so high you look elsewhere for coverage.


[Modified by r2x, 9:21 AM 5/16/2002]

 

Good post George! I share your views; you pretty much summed up it all up. I've been attending and/or instructing HPDEs since 1988 and I've only seen one metal to metal. Car in front lost it, car behind was too close and clipped him. Fortunately, the damage was very light. Each driver agreed to pay for their own damage.

Most of the damage I've seen done to cars occurs in likely parts of the track. Until you have some experience, don't experiment in unforgiving corners. How many cars have smacked the barrier to driver's right near VIR's turn 5? Many! The entry is a little tricky and the barrier is 15 ft from the edge of the track at the exit. Don't play there. Explore the limits (with guidance from your instructor) where there is generous run-off. Being able to drive your car home, or bringing it home in a bucket depends almost entirely on your learning attutude.

 

I've never heard anything about a "gentleman's understanding". I believe the general rule is "you pay your money and you take your chances". Get to know the people you're on the track with ( ). I get to know the people in my race group on a weekend (most of them are the same people from prev. weekends) and I get comfortable running with them.

 

Let us know when you're going to be at an event... I'm sure everyone would like to avoid your run group.

-- personally, if I were to damage someone's property in a non-race situation, I wouldn't hesitate to pay for it. I'd go into what I think of a person who just walked away, but you'd probably get very insulted...

 

Like the others have said - I honestly don't know what happens if there's car to car contact at a drivers ed event. Because I have never been to an event where it happened. That says kind of a lot - I've been doing this since late 1998 and have well over 30 track weekends under my belt.

I especially second what George said about having instructors in the cars being a big part of all this. I'm an instructor. I ride with people I often have never met and know absolutely nothing about, at high rates of speed around race tracks. Believe me - the instructor doesn't want you to hit someone (or something) any more than you do.

More generally...is driving on track dangerous? Well, yeah, potentially. You're driving fast, sometimes with other cars close to you (especially in the more advanced run groups). At some tracks there are more things to hit than others. For example, Watkins Glen is a track up in NY State - and it is highly unforgiving. If you make a mistake, in most cases you've got about two blades of grass for runoff room...and then you're in the guardrail. Now think about that if you're passing another car on one of the straights. What if you have a tire go down? You never know when something's going to fail on your car, or somebody else's, or if you'll get in some oil or some coolant, or when a deer is going to run out in front of you (don't laugh - this has happened)...

What you can know is that you've checked out your car thoroughly before going to the track, and you can give that guy in front of you a bit of extra room in a tricky part of the track. So you're taking a bit of a calculated risk I suppose. Not trying to scare you off - but I'd be lying if I said there wasn't *some* amount of risk involved in this.

 

That's the way I would think of it as well. Things aren't always crystal clear as to fault (my character mark came from a race school however). I never thought for a second of asking the guy to pay the bill (mine was a small punch in the sheet metal), I was happy we were both fine and no major damage occurred.

ANYthing CAN happen, lost wheel, spindle failure, blowout, oil or other not so sticky fluid on track, etc . . . (I have heard of all of these happening) These are relatively unlikely yet possible occurrences that can all be minimized by taking responsiblity for your own equipment (OP oil and stuff you cannot prevent yourself of-course). BUT, you need to resign yourself to the fact that **** happens and the longer you do this, the more likely it is for you to encur some damage. You could be the guy that goes 10 years without a scratch or you could be the guy that rolled his Mazda at his first ever event.

 

I am aware of several people that have made insurance claims for incidents that happened at DE events and had them paid off. One of them was a totalled late model M3. I don't know what happened after they were paid though.

In 60 DE events I've never seen any metal to metal contact myself. The closest thing I can think of was a situation in march of '01 when a friend took evasive action to avoid getting collected by another car that lost it in T10 at summit point in the rain. My friend got out of shape and couldn't gather it up and ended up smacking the pit wall pretty hard. As far as I know the other guy didn't pay anything toward the repairs to my friends car.

I've damaged my own car slightly once. It was at my first event and it was my only car at the time. I was still able to drive it home. I didn't make an insurance claim for the damage. I consider it a pretty cheap lesson.

SO... I'd say come on out to the track and have fun. Do keep in mind that you probably need to drive your car home and to work on Monday when the "red mist" starts to come over you. Even if you forget your instructor will probably remind you

Joel

 

I think this viewpoint is somewhat idealistic. If two people are running in an more advanced group, they will most likely be pretty close to each other (personally, I'd now prefer being 1' to 2' from someone else rather than 6' to 12' because contact at that point carries so much less momentum - especially side by side). If the lead car spins in a turn and collects the second, are you going to be able to make a very strong case for blame regardless of which car you are driving?

 

Obviously things are going to be vague... and I guess I was commenting on a non-vague situation.

To be more simplistic with it... it comes down to what type of person you are. If you know in your heart that an incident was your fault, walk up to the other guy and say "you paid your money and took the risks", I just don't see any integrity in that.

Two responsible people can always work a situation out...

 

I am not *sure* I've seen or heard of a non-vague incident on track.

Cars A, B and C at VIR. C is fast overtaking B and B is fast overtaking A. All three are on each other's tails. Into Nascar Bend, A puts right rear off in grass and countersteers, B slams into A, C cuts under both and luckily isn't hit. Who's fault?

Cars A, B, C, D, E, F down front straight at CMP. A points by both B and C. B can't finish pass before entering T1 and loops it center track. C passes stopped car on left D, E, F pass on right, luckily no damage. Who would have been at fault?

Cars A, B, C going into Hog Pen at VIR nose to tail. A drifts left and B cuts underneath and C follows suit. A regains traction and comes back track right. B backs off and C tags B's right rear. Who's at fault?

Cars A, B, C, D go into NB at VIR. B passes A on left but cannot slowed now. Followed by C and D and puts right rear off in Left Hook and loops it. C avoids hitting B by inches as D avoids C likewise. Who would have been at fault?

Cars A and B go into T4 at RR opposite track from each other. A looses control and shoots back across track. B tries to predict A's movement but cannot slow enough and tags A. Who's at fault?

Then answer to all of these in my opinion is two fold. Yes there's a catalyst but moreso, everyone is a participant. If you don't agree with me, then I'd be happy to give you my schedule as well. FWIW, some of these are races, some are driver schools.

 

Don't worry. I don't do HPDE or track days. And IMHO, when you are driving a car on a race track, you are "racing". Might not be considered "real racing", but the same rules apply. I suppose you would expect someone to pay for your damage if you spun in their oil because an oil line came off their car? The only thing I expect from another driver who causes damage to my car is an apology. Rubbing is NOT racing, but it does happen.

 

I know that some HPDE's and some racing organizations have a No touch rule
if you contact... you are gone

many racing organizations have rules and consequences regarding contact.

all the accidents I have seen are single car incidents not caused by anyone other than the involved car

If you are that concerned about it... don't do it.

Driving on a track at speed is dangerous... you can be killed, injured, dismembered, etc , your car can be wrecked.

Personally.. I have not had any body damage other than hitting and dragging an apex cone. I have been in a few "close calls" but because of smart DEFENSIVE driving... they didn't turn into an incident

if you get into a situation with another car in which you are not comfortable... back off... lift.. let the car go... and report the aggressive nature to the event chairmen/safety steward

 

One of the things we at NASA try to get people understand is that when they bring their street cars to a race track to learn how to drive, it is NOT racing.

Racing is what you do in a fully prepared race car where you are in a competitive atmosphere vying for money, points, a place in a series or whatever.

HPDE for us is NOT that atmosphere; hence we do not have timed runs, nor do we expect hotdogging on the track. That gets you time in the pits talking with officials and maybe cooling off periods. We do not condone "offs" either. Which is one reason we continue in-car instructors in the intermediate group also.

We also have racers in some series who desire to abide by the 13/13 rule. You hit someone, get caught in an accident, there are reprimands and consequences. Punting, bumping, rubbing is not an acceptable way of racing in these groups.

So when our HPDE entrants talk about racing on the track, we discourage this description because, we hope, they are learing to DRIVE not RACE. They can do that in one of our schools or when they attain the advnaced and super advanced groups.

 

Adam - If I raced in IT, I would certainly expect to get at least rubbed, and possibly hit, during any race. It just seems to be the way of things at the ones I've been to. I would NOT expect the person who accidentally rubbed me to pay for anything. In my opinion, that is part of wheel-to-wheel racing in IT. On the other hand, when I go to a HPDE I expect people to follow the rules and not do anything stupid that might cause an incident. I understand that stuff happens, but I think every driver should maintain enough awareness of their driving to reasonably control their car. If you can't control your car enough to keep from hitting me when I'm following the rules of the weekend, then I would expect us to at least *discuss* the liability of the situation. For example, you don't brake early enough for turn 1 and rear-end me becuase I'm going slower than you are. Where is the "vagueness" there?

My statement above purely applied to HPDEs, not, I repeat NOT, to a race weekend with anyone.

 

I don't remotely *expect* to get rubbed in an IT or HC race. If I expected that, I wouldn't do it. I am very excited that you have come up with another example to my point. I am sure two people looking at that damage would have a very heated discussion on who broke too early and who was following too closely. I contend that if two cars make contact on track at speed there has some degree of vagueness or it wouldn't have ended in contact.

 

I've watched IT races, and have seen enough contact in them to know I probably won't race IT. Last I checked there isn't a 13/13 rule in IT.

As far as I'm concerned, your comparing apples and oranges when it comes to IT vs a HPDE. I know you well enough to know that you don't approch a Instructor session at a HPDE the same way (attitude, compeditive drive, adrenalin, etc) as you would a race group, and you don't have the same expectations of the people you are running with. Or do you? At a HPDE do you expect to pass people in turns without a signal, race them to the next corner, try to gain a position? My guess would be No, you don't expect those things in a HPDE session where you do expect them in a race.

Question - What is "Braking too early" at a HPDE?... I wasn't aware there was such a thing in the learning environment.

 

before the braking zone... with too much force. Usually during the first session on the first day.