http://www.mustangsandmore.com....html

What are your opinion guys?

 

well for what its worth blinxx9900 gave a good link and i was able to find some kind of limit based on the b16b ctr engine

http://www.zealautowerks.com/hfseries.html

b16b: 2356fps at 11,000rpms
b16b: 2141fps at 10,000rpms
b16b: 1927fps at 9,000rpms


h22: 2258fps at 9000 rpms
h22: 2133fps at 8500 rpms

h23: 2366fps at 9000 rpms
h23: 2234fps at 8500 rpms
h23: 2103fps at 8000 rpms

edit: numbers are mean fps.

Modified by alterdcreations at 6:24 PM 12/5/2006


Modified by alterdcreations at 6:29 PM 12/5/2006

 

bump fo any imput

 

That it's wrong...if you don't believe me then put honda numbers into any piston speed calculator on the internet (http://www.slowgt.com/Calc2.htm#PistSpeed) and you'll see that the "article" is wrong.

I've got a formula that gives the same results as that calculator I linked to and I derived it myself.

If someone wants to get more into whether piston speed (actual piston speed, not the magic 3 number equation) effects revs then post up the rod length, stroke, and redline of any bike.

 

i belief you on that but imange that the h23 piston speed at 9,000rpms is like a b16b spinning to 11,000 rpms. god damn

 

I think my internet example might've been a bad idea since the link (and resulting calculations) you gave are very wrong. I can't say how far off or why you are off but 2000fps would be 120000fpm which is way beyond the realm of possibility, if 2000fps was just a units mistake and it's supposed to be 2000fpm then that's way too low.

I proposed the bike example (I've never found any info on bike rod lengths, but I'm sure it's out there) because rod ratios have very very small effects on piston speed, less than 1%. The rod ratio argument for power can either be piston speed (though I don't think that's a "power" argument so much as an rpm argument) and the dwell time argument. The dwell time argument involves a lot of factors, but that would be another topic altogether.

 

i am using the zealworks link as a basis on calculating the b16b engine. its all on the same scale so i can compare it to the h 22/h23 enging and also use it as a gauge as to where i can saftly rev my h22/ with f22 crank.

also the numbers are the mean fps

 

My two little cents.

Invest in stronger rod bolts and call it a day.

 

Ah, well I can't say anything about h-series motors specifically, don't really know anything about them. But I can agree with 88 rex, arp rod bolts, valvetrain and you're off!

 

good stuff, more info would be great

 

I'd like more info too (people with more of an ME background) but I can give you guys the little derivation for my formula.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albu...h.jpg

A few notes about what I wrote
*The boxed equation at the bottom is the final equation with 10,000 replacing rpm
*The measurements are in mm but the 25.4*12 is a conversion to feet (so people don't jump down my throat right away)
*The example motor was some k-series (a k20a crank but I don't remember if it was a hypothetical "destroked k24" or a stock k20a)

Any comments/suggestions/critiques/questions welcome ^_^

 

I think you need a better cylinder head for the longer stroke/higher piston speed combo, but for the point im talking about, is on the opposite spectrum of what most people infer when they state that.

 

wow, i couldnt read that at all. looking over some of my dynamics sheat im pretty sure that the Vmax = angular speed X (stroke/2).

angular speed is in radians per second so you would want RPM X (1/60) X 2Pi.

im like 75% sure on that one.

 

durrrrr i guess i was wrong and should have read the first thread!

 

you guys are overthinking this one.

 

well, if its simple, i think you would just need to adjust your timing.

 

lol, i mean theres only so much all that math can tell you. Build an engine, put it on the dyno, and quantify it. (i know not everyone has the resources to do this.)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(i know not everyone has the resources to do this.)</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol. you are my resources

 

Gents and Ladies If any;
I try to shed a bit of light on the situation. 2300 fps is impossible considering 1126 fps is MACH 1. Also note it says v.50 BETA at the top of the zealwerks page, which indicates to me it is a trial version. What obviously had happened is there is a conversion error on there......
Formula 1 done a nice job with the calc.
As far a piston speed goes, the manufacturers always use 18 meter per second (60fps) as the rule of thumb. For the H22 motor with 90.7 mm stroke that means 5950 rpm is recommended. But keep in mind that most of those Honda motors live 200,000 miles. If you account for a short life span of 10 minutes or 10 miles, the piston speed can be raised. In my best estimate you should be able to get about 10,000 rpm out of it?!! The mean piston speed is 30.2 m/s (meter per second) or 99 fps.
To calculate mean piston speed: stroke 90.7 mm x 2 x 10000 rpm /1000/60 =
30.2 m/s

Conversion m/s to fps: 30.2 / 0.3048 = 99.1 fps

But since the H22 is a long stroke motor, that means stroke longer than bore, the intake valves are proportionally smaller and intake air speed is higher, which influences V.E. (Volumetric Efficiency). See Formula 1(the race car) for some specs. They are all extreme SHORT stroke motors.... Intake valves huge.


Then there is always the compromise of con rod length to stroke. The shorter the rod or the longer the stroke, the more angle is involved. Which means that maximum piston speed is achived earlier,maximum piston speed is increased,piston acceleration is increased, some power is lost due to angularity, more friction on the cylinder wall is created. But then shorter rods are lighter.

I have built a few Nissan engines (booooo) in the past of similar proportions 89 bore, 96 stroke, 165 mm rod length. I ended up shortening the stroke to 86 in order to not load up the cylinder walls as much, use more boost (Sorry turbo charged) and rev the engine another 800 rpm.
For the H22 87 bore 90.7 stroke 143 rod length does not look so good to me... rods too short.

When you play the "Game" on the computer with an engine simulator you will find a limit where the piston speed nears the combustion speed of the gases. On a NA motor that is achieved rather quickly since there is a limit of air, compression and pump gas.

 

Hey Combustion contraption;
Been there, built many engines, ran them on the dyno and then compiled ALL the info into a giant design program. So now why build any engine?? Just do the math and develop some cool new tech, then build an engine or ten, stick em on the dyno........
Like variable intake system for a B16 with a V.E. of 107% or a varaible compression ratio engine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boss Brakes &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I try to shed a bit of light on the situation. 2300 fps is impossible considering 1126 fps is MACH 1</TD></TR></TABLE>

its a mean figure, obviously.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boss Brakes &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey Combustion contraption;
Been there, built many engines, ran them on the dyno and then compiled ALL the info into a giant design program. So now why build any engine?? Just do the math and develop some cool new tech, then build an engine or ten, stick em on the dyno........
Like variable intake system for a B16 with a V.E. of 107% or a varaible compression ratio engine.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have a variable compression ratio engine in my car right now. At 9000rpm my rod bolts stretch just a bit, and my compression increases. nifty huh.

As far as the rest of what your saying, you build the engine and put it on the dyno to find out these formula's are just guidelines, sometimes they point us in the right direction, sometimes they do not.

 

thats pretty funny.
are there any accurate calculators out their?
i am not looking for any specfic numbers but more like a compareison.
the b16b is rev happy engine and when it turns 10,000 rpms it piston speed is still slower than a h22 at 9000 rpms. how can you build to compensate for that? interms of making power, maybe a very large duration camshaft?
i now the dyno tell all but how fast do you have to spin a engine before it out runs the flame?

Also info at top of page givin for comparison.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thats pretty funny.
are there any accurate calculators out their?
i am not looking for any specfic numbers but more like a compareison.
the b16b is rev happy engine and when it turns 10,000 rpms it piston speed is still slower than a h22 at 9000 rpms. how can you build to compensate for that? interms of making power, maybe a very large duration camshaft?
i now the dyno tell all but how fast do you have to spin a engine before it out runs the flame?

Also info at top of page givin for comparison. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You can't just compare RPM to RPM on different motors. At least not IMO. H22 is a closed deck block (well some are) and B series is open deck. You have different sidewall tolerances there. On top of that, you won't be reving to 10k on a B16b without an upgraded valvetrain or else you will float a valve. AND then I think Combustion Contraption is alluding to the fact that you'll need a head that can flow well enough to feed those RPM's.


AND ON TOP OF THAT, you need to find cams to make power that high, which I don't believe any OTS cam will do for you. So you'd need some blingy one off custom cam.$$$

The glory of the H22 is torque, not its sky high rev capabilities.

I think I'm just rambling now, but I think piston speed is only a small number to be looked at when building OUR motors. There is enough R&D on these boards to be able to pick your, head, piston, rod, crank combo and not have to worry about your piston speeds. Someone on here has already done the math and if it works is now mass producing that parts that work.

 

What your missing is the comparison of piston speed to piston speed in different engines. mainly the b16b to the h22a. i not comparing 11,000 rpms on both engines but the piston velocity.
when you look at the piston speed you see that the h22 turns less rpms and has a higher piston speed. in terms of building a engine and setting a rev limit this is good info. know that i know a ratio then i can move forward with alittle piece of mind. knowing when the engine starts to out run the flame helps with cylinder head design. i dont thing combustion contraption alluded that at all. thats pretty much a given. any way i think being able to calculate this before a build will give you the ability to match parts accordinally. mean that if your long stroke engine starts to out run the flame at xxxfpswhich is equal to 8800rpms then can look into increasing the flow velocity of the head and change cam profile to help it out or vise-a-versa and build a head to hatch that 8800 rpm ceiling and a cam to match.
either way the more info the better
is their a more accurate method of finding out this info?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What your missing is the comparison of piston speed to piston speed in different engines. mainly the b16b to the h22a. i not comparing 11,000 rpms on both engines but the piston velocity.
when you look at the piston speed you see that the h22 turns less rpms and has a higher piston speed. in terms of building a engine and setting a rev limit this is good info. know that i know a ratio then i can move forward with alittle piece of mind. knowing when the engine starts to out run the flame helps with cylinder head design. i dont thing combustion contraption alluded that at all. thats pretty much a given. any way i think being able to calculate this before a build will give you the ability to match parts accordinally. mean that if your long stroke engine starts to out run the flame at xxxfpswhich is equal to 8800rpms then can look into increasing the flow velocity of the head and change cam profile to help it out or vise-a-versa and build a head to hatch that 8800 rpm ceiling and a cam to match.
either way the more info the better
is their a more accurate method of finding out this info?
</TD></TR></TABLE>


My point about all your calculating is that all your calculating is moot b/c you're doing math someone's already done. Unless you are treading into a new territory of Honda design, which I believe has been thoroughly R&D'd here, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

Theoretically, you could have an engine with less piston than you are describing explode if you don't have strong enough bolts holding everything together. That's why I said get strong rod bolts and call it a day. Lighter pistons and rods will obviously help too.

Out of curiosity, what kind of motor do you plan on building? And why do you want to rev an h22 to 11k?