CRVTEC and LS/VTEC information
04-28-2002, 01:13 PM
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Frankenstein Motor Information Post
First things first. This was made up by myself (Tom...a.k.a. simple4012) and mark (NAspirated).
We made this because we kept seeing posts that were the same. Mostly about building a Frankenstein motor. Frank motors are known as CRVtec's or Ls/Vtec's. If you still have questions. DO NOT HESITATE TO POST OR SEND US A PM. However we feel this will be of great help. This is to be used as a reference only, and neither myself, mark nor Clubsi.com is liable for you blowin your car up. With that being said we shall begin.
First some basics:
Either the Ls block or the CRV block can be found at a junkyard. Call around and look. They arent that hard to find. Especially the ls blocks. Dime a dozen. Look to pay about 250-300 for the ls block.or about 800-1000 for the CRV block. If you are going to resleeve the ls block then obviously it doesnt pay to buy the crv block. Save some money and buy me something.
The benefit of the CRV block over the LS block is the size. The cranks are IDENTICAL but the b20 (crv) has an 84 mm bore as opposed to a 81 mm bore that the ls block has. One issue i see people say alot is "Does it matter the mileage of my motor". Not really no. You are going to rip it apart, replace everything and put it back together anyway. The only thing that will really matter in this issue is the condition of the cylinder walls. Even if in bad shape however they can be bored then honed and then are ready to go. CRV block are kinda tricky though. JE only makes 84mm and 85mm pistons. This means unless the block is practically brand new (like under 15k on it) you will have to bore it 40 thousandths (spelling?) over if you intend on using these products. Ls blocks are basically always ok, unless ya spun a bearing in which case dont even bother with the thing. A bore and a Hone will fix most problems.
The advantage of the LS block is that there is a vast array of Honda pistons you can use. CTR, JDM ITR and USDM ITR all make good canidates. These are cheap (330 or so with rings, most of the time they are cheaper) and since honda is so damn cool.....they make oversized. So get this one: buy a used ls block at the junkyard. Bore it over and then use CTR pistons along with the stock ls everything else and ya done! Thanks honda!
But.....CRV blocks are a lil different and here is why they more money. Honda never intended on making the b20 a high performance motor. So why make pistons that are the same bore? They dont really. Just stock B20 pistons. which yield a stupid low CR. And also the valve reliefs on the stock CRV pistons are not big enough to accept the valves of VTEC heads. So if using larger cams you cant really play with the cam gears too much. or else problems will occur. So what do you do? Buy aftermarket right?!? 500 for slugs. then 300 for rods. So right away thats 800-900 dollars more then the
Ls block...But you WILL HAVE MORE POWER!
Now as for parts you will need with either motor. These are NEEDS not WANTS. They are a part of either build and will not be listed in the motors simply because we will assume you will get them.
1. New rod and main bearings. Please dont ask what kind ya need. they are different for every motor.
2. New head gasket, Oil pan gasket, rear main seal, Oil return gasket, oil filter
3. Thrust washers
4. fittings for running the external oil line.
5. You must have the entire rotating assembly balanced!!!!!!!
6. New VTEC Water pump.
7. New VTEC oil pump.
8. New VTEC Timing belt.
9. BE SURE TO MATCH THE WATER PUMP AND TIMING BELT. VTEC=VTEC and Non-vtec=Non-vtec. otherwise your car will
die a very painfull death.!
10. We both prefer ARP bolts to stock. Stock is usable but ARP is cheap insurance.
We also assume that you have bolt-ons already. Intake, Header with a 2.5 inch collector and a good exaust.
If you dont have these.....get them.....NOW!
Like said above. We will assume that all the motors being built will use this stuff...hence: we will not list these parts in the total build up parts list.
BLOCK SET-UP
LSVTEC block MILD: (250)
CTR/TYPE-R pistons (330)
LS rods
LSVTEC block MEDIUM: (250)
JE 11.5 pistons (Ross also make pistons for this application) (485)
EAGLE rods (350)
LSVTEC bock WILD: (250)
Resleeve with Golden Eagle Sleeves 85 MM bore (1000)
JE 12.5/13.0 pistons (Ross also will do) (485)
CROWER connecting rods (500)
B20VTEC block MILD: (900)
Stock B20 pistons
Stock rods
B20VTEC block MEDUIM: (900)
JE 11.5 or 12.5 pistons (485)
EAGLE rods (350)
B20VTEC block WILD: (900)
GOLDEN EAGLE 86MM SLEEVES (1000)
Custom 12.5/13.0 Pistons (500)
95 mm Crank (800???)
Deck Plate (machine shop cost)
HEAD PACKAGES WITH LSVTECS/B20VTECS
MILD:
Type-R head with skunk2 stage 1 cams, skunk2 cam gears.
($800-$1200 full head, $600 for cams, 200 for gears)
SI head with skunk2 stage 1 cams OR JUN type 2, Type-R Valve Train, Skunk2 cam gears OR JUN cam gears, Type-r Inner and Outer springs w/ retainers .
($400-$600 for head, $600 skunk2 cams / $800 for JUN type 2, $200 for Skunk2 cam gears / JUN cam gears?, Type-R valve train $350)
GSR head: Similar as SI head
MEDIUM:
Type-R head with skunk2 stage 2 OR JUN type 3, Skunk2 valve train OR Port flow INNER-OUTER valve springs TI Titanium Retainers OR JUN valve train, Skunk2 valves, Skunk2 cam gears OR JUN cam gears .
($800-$1200 full head, $650 for Skunk2 cams / $850 for JUN 3 cams, $440 skunk2 valve train / $380 JUN valve train, $200 Skunk2 cam gears / JUN cam gears?
SI Head: ($400-$600 for the head) Similar to Type-R setup
GSR Head: ($400-$600 for the head) Similar to Type-R setup
WILD:
GSR head with TODA SPEC C cams, TODA cam gears, TODA springs, titanium retainers, TODA Individual throttle body / or TWM I.T.B.
($400-$600 for the head, $1900 for TODA Head package includes SPEC C cams-cam gears-valve train, $2500 for TODA Individual Throttle Body, $2000 for TWM Individual Throttle Body
SI head: Similar to GSR setup
TYPE-R head: Similar to GSR setup (add an extra 300-500 bucks for the head if purchased seperatly)
Tranny Info for Frankenstein motors
For the most part any GSR or Type R tranny is good for these motor's. The B16 tranny is not as strong as these. The differential is actually physically smaller then on these trannies. This could be due to the smaller motor, cost cutting....whatever the case may be. I dont trust it.
I broke mine on street tires and have seen many others do the same. Yes it will work. Yes it will bolt up...But i wouldnt use it.....Unless you have too. That tranny with a Quaife lsd would be good. The gearing in that and the ITR are the same so it would be ok. for performance.
But still why bother.......just get a 1.8 tranny!
DECENT setup for the street: (500-600)
Any GSR or Type R tranny
NICE setup for street: (1700)
GSR tranny
Quaife LSD
JDM Final Drive
or...
JDM ITR Tranny with 4.785 FD
SWEET setup for the street: (2600)
Type R tranny
Quaife LSD
JDM Final drive
HOLY GOD setup for the street: (3200)
Type R tranny
Quaife LSD
ATS 4.929 Final Drive
Gsr 5th gear
For an all out track car i would would like this setup most: (4000 +)
Type R tranny
Quaife 5.1 Final Drive
Spool differential
Custom Kaaz Gearing
ECU Setups for Frank motors
You have a few choices here:
GREAT setup for the street: (550)
P28 rechipped with a JDM B16 proggy with a higher rev limit.
VAFC
Many people dount this setup because it is a "stock" program. DONT. This is a great setup, and when
paired with the VAFC provides very good tunability and since it is a stock program it is much less prone to detonation for timing reasons. There are a few people going very fast with this setup.....some are even on this message forum. Our pro car at www.b20vtec.com is another. 11.53@114mph with this exact setup.
ANOTHER setup for the street: (500)
P28 with hondata
Dont matter what you call it Hondata works well for street cars. make good power while having good drivability.
More ECU choices:
Accel DFI 7.0 2100
Speedpro 2100 ( comes with wideband)
AEM EMS 1400 or so
LINK not sure
Fuel setups for Frank Motors
Fuel systems are actually pretty easy with these motors. They arent that hard to figure out.
BASIC setup for Ls/Vtec: (550)
RC 270 cc injectors
Holley 190 fuel pump
adjustable FPR with gauge
BIG setup for Ls/Vtec: (550-600)
RC 310 cc injectors
Holley 255 pump
adjustable FPR with gauge
BASIC setup for CRVTEC: (550-600)
RC 310 cc injectors
Holley 255 pump
adjustable FPR with gauge
BIG setup for CRVTEC: (600)
RC 370 cc injectors
Holley 255 pump
adjustable FPR
If doing ITB then the kit will come with an adjustable FPR and 440 cc Injectors.
[Modified by simple4012, 2:46 PM 11/7/2002]
We made this because we kept seeing posts that were the same. Mostly about building a Frankenstein motor. Frank motors are known as CRVtec's or Ls/Vtec's. If you still have questions. DO NOT HESITATE TO POST OR SEND US A PM. However we feel this will be of great help. This is to be used as a reference only, and neither myself, mark nor Clubsi.com is liable for you blowin your car up. With that being said we shall begin.
First some basics:
Either the Ls block or the CRV block can be found at a junkyard. Call around and look. They arent that hard to find. Especially the ls blocks. Dime a dozen. Look to pay about 250-300 for the ls block.or about 800-1000 for the CRV block. If you are going to resleeve the ls block then obviously it doesnt pay to buy the crv block. Save some money and buy me something.
The benefit of the CRV block over the LS block is the size. The cranks are IDENTICAL but the b20 (crv) has an 84 mm bore as opposed to a 81 mm bore that the ls block has. One issue i see people say alot is "Does it matter the mileage of my motor". Not really no. You are going to rip it apart, replace everything and put it back together anyway. The only thing that will really matter in this issue is the condition of the cylinder walls. Even if in bad shape however they can be bored then honed and then are ready to go. CRV block are kinda tricky though. JE only makes 84mm and 85mm pistons. This means unless the block is practically brand new (like under 15k on it) you will have to bore it 40 thousandths (spelling?) over if you intend on using these products. Ls blocks are basically always ok, unless ya spun a bearing in which case dont even bother with the thing. A bore and a Hone will fix most problems.
The advantage of the LS block is that there is a vast array of Honda pistons you can use. CTR, JDM ITR and USDM ITR all make good canidates. These are cheap (330 or so with rings, most of the time they are cheaper) and since honda is so damn cool.....they make oversized. So get this one: buy a used ls block at the junkyard. Bore it over and then use CTR pistons along with the stock ls everything else and ya done! Thanks honda!
But.....CRV blocks are a lil different and here is why they more money. Honda never intended on making the b20 a high performance motor. So why make pistons that are the same bore? They dont really. Just stock B20 pistons. which yield a stupid low CR. And also the valve reliefs on the stock CRV pistons are not big enough to accept the valves of VTEC heads. So if using larger cams you cant really play with the cam gears too much. or else problems will occur. So what do you do? Buy aftermarket right?!? 500 for slugs. then 300 for rods. So right away thats 800-900 dollars more then the
Ls block...But you WILL HAVE MORE POWER!
Now as for parts you will need with either motor. These are NEEDS not WANTS. They are a part of either build and will not be listed in the motors simply because we will assume you will get them.
1. New rod and main bearings. Please dont ask what kind ya need. they are different for every motor.
2. New head gasket, Oil pan gasket, rear main seal, Oil return gasket, oil filter
3. Thrust washers
4. fittings for running the external oil line.
5. You must have the entire rotating assembly balanced!!!!!!!
6. New VTEC Water pump.
7. New VTEC oil pump.
8. New VTEC Timing belt.
9. BE SURE TO MATCH THE WATER PUMP AND TIMING BELT. VTEC=VTEC and Non-vtec=Non-vtec. otherwise your car will
die a very painfull death.!
10. We both prefer ARP bolts to stock. Stock is usable but ARP is cheap insurance.
We also assume that you have bolt-ons already. Intake, Header with a 2.5 inch collector and a good exaust.
If you dont have these.....get them.....NOW!
Like said above. We will assume that all the motors being built will use this stuff...hence: we will not list these parts in the total build up parts list.
BLOCK SET-UP
LSVTEC block MILD: (250)
CTR/TYPE-R pistons (330)
LS rods
LSVTEC block MEDIUM: (250)
JE 11.5 pistons (Ross also make pistons for this application) (485)
EAGLE rods (350)
LSVTEC bock WILD: (250)
Resleeve with Golden Eagle Sleeves 85 MM bore (1000)
JE 12.5/13.0 pistons (Ross also will do) (485)
CROWER connecting rods (500)
B20VTEC block MILD: (900)
Stock B20 pistons
Stock rods
B20VTEC block MEDUIM: (900)
JE 11.5 or 12.5 pistons (485)
EAGLE rods (350)
B20VTEC block WILD: (900)
GOLDEN EAGLE 86MM SLEEVES (1000)
Custom 12.5/13.0 Pistons (500)
95 mm Crank (800???)
Deck Plate (machine shop cost)
HEAD PACKAGES WITH LSVTECS/B20VTECS
MILD:
Type-R head with skunk2 stage 1 cams, skunk2 cam gears.
($800-$1200 full head, $600 for cams, 200 for gears)
SI head with skunk2 stage 1 cams OR JUN type 2, Type-R Valve Train, Skunk2 cam gears OR JUN cam gears, Type-r Inner and Outer springs w/ retainers .
($400-$600 for head, $600 skunk2 cams / $800 for JUN type 2, $200 for Skunk2 cam gears / JUN cam gears?, Type-R valve train $350)
GSR head: Similar as SI head
MEDIUM:
Type-R head with skunk2 stage 2 OR JUN type 3, Skunk2 valve train OR Port flow INNER-OUTER valve springs TI Titanium Retainers OR JUN valve train, Skunk2 valves, Skunk2 cam gears OR JUN cam gears .
($800-$1200 full head, $650 for Skunk2 cams / $850 for JUN 3 cams, $440 skunk2 valve train / $380 JUN valve train, $200 Skunk2 cam gears / JUN cam gears?
SI Head: ($400-$600 for the head) Similar to Type-R setup
GSR Head: ($400-$600 for the head) Similar to Type-R setup
WILD:
GSR head with TODA SPEC C cams, TODA cam gears, TODA springs, titanium retainers, TODA Individual throttle body / or TWM I.T.B.
($400-$600 for the head, $1900 for TODA Head package includes SPEC C cams-cam gears-valve train, $2500 for TODA Individual Throttle Body, $2000 for TWM Individual Throttle Body
SI head: Similar to GSR setup
TYPE-R head: Similar to GSR setup (add an extra 300-500 bucks for the head if purchased seperatly)
Tranny Info for Frankenstein motors
For the most part any GSR or Type R tranny is good for these motor's. The B16 tranny is not as strong as these. The differential is actually physically smaller then on these trannies. This could be due to the smaller motor, cost cutting....whatever the case may be. I dont trust it.
I broke mine on street tires and have seen many others do the same. Yes it will work. Yes it will bolt up...But i wouldnt use it.....Unless you have too. That tranny with a Quaife lsd would be good. The gearing in that and the ITR are the same so it would be ok. for performance.
But still why bother.......just get a 1.8 tranny!
DECENT setup for the street: (500-600)
Any GSR or Type R tranny
NICE setup for street: (1700)
GSR tranny
Quaife LSD
JDM Final Drive
or...
JDM ITR Tranny with 4.785 FD
SWEET setup for the street: (2600)
Type R tranny
Quaife LSD
JDM Final drive
HOLY GOD setup for the street: (3200)
Type R tranny
Quaife LSD
ATS 4.929 Final Drive
Gsr 5th gear
For an all out track car i would would like this setup most: (4000 +)
Type R tranny
Quaife 5.1 Final Drive
Spool differential
Custom Kaaz Gearing
ECU Setups for Frank motors
You have a few choices here:
GREAT setup for the street: (550)
P28 rechipped with a JDM B16 proggy with a higher rev limit.
VAFC
Many people dount this setup because it is a "stock" program. DONT. This is a great setup, and when
paired with the VAFC provides very good tunability and since it is a stock program it is much less prone to detonation for timing reasons. There are a few people going very fast with this setup.....some are even on this message forum. Our pro car at www.b20vtec.com is another. 11.53@114mph with this exact setup.
ANOTHER setup for the street: (500)
P28 with hondata
Dont matter what you call it Hondata works well for street cars. make good power while having good drivability.
More ECU choices:
Accel DFI 7.0 2100
Speedpro 2100 ( comes with wideband)
AEM EMS 1400 or so
LINK not sure
Fuel setups for Frank Motors
Fuel systems are actually pretty easy with these motors. They arent that hard to figure out.
BASIC setup for Ls/Vtec: (550)
RC 270 cc injectors
Holley 190 fuel pump
adjustable FPR with gauge
BIG setup for Ls/Vtec: (550-600)
RC 310 cc injectors
Holley 255 pump
adjustable FPR with gauge
BASIC setup for CRVTEC: (550-600)
RC 310 cc injectors
Holley 255 pump
adjustable FPR with gauge
BIG setup for CRVTEC: (600)
RC 370 cc injectors
Holley 255 pump
adjustable FPR
If doing ITB then the kit will come with an adjustable FPR and 440 cc Injectors.
[Modified by simple4012, 2:46 PM 11/7/2002]
04-28-2002, 01:32 PM
#2
Honda-Tech Member
Re: FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR INFORMATION POST (simple4012)
Thanks for the info. One thing tho.... You should get a mod to rename the title of the post to something like "LS vtec info" so it can be found via search easier.
04-28-2002, 02:58 PM
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Re: FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR INFORMATION POST (simple4012)
Thanks, all these info is valuable.
I wish I have the money I need to do some wild changes in my '01 ITR
Although you mentioned the basic performance upgrades, why didn't you mention anything about your clutch setup? I'd like to know what the pros use.
I wish I have the money I need to do some wild changes in my '01 ITR
Although you mentioned the basic performance upgrades, why didn't you mention anything about your clutch setup? I'd like to know what the pros use.
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04-29-2002, 04:37 AM
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Re: FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR INFORMATION POST (simple4012)
I would also recomend a crank brace and an Oil cooler from a GSR94-95 / or ITR.
Also I recomend an upgrade to Oil pump ( Endyn ) , I wouldn't use JE high compression pistons unless you stay under 12-1. Endyne roller wave is the only piston I have found that I can run 12.5-1 + on pump gas, without pinging!
" Build it right or build it twice ! "
Also I recomend an upgrade to Oil pump ( Endyn ) , I wouldn't use JE high compression pistons unless you stay under 12-1. Endyne roller wave is the only piston I have found that I can run 12.5-1 + on pump gas, without pinging!
" Build it right or build it twice ! "
04-29-2002, 12:48 PM
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Re: FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR INFORMATION POST (BlownB18)
Would you guys recommend a catch can and a crank girdle? I know these engines weren't made for high reving. Any info is helpful.
04-29-2002, 01:05 PM
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Re: FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR INFORMATION POST (simple4012)
Buy aftermarket right?!? Ok so ya just spent between 450-500 on pistons...you cant use those things on stock rods! So ya buy aftermarket again! another 350 or so.
Aftermarket pistons work fine on stock rods.
However, if you use stock LS rods, replace the bolts with ARPs.
Regarding the Crank Girdle, I highly recommend them, BUT if you use one
you MUST install dowel pins and align hone the main journals.
04-29-2002, 09:16 PM
#12
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Re: FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR INFORMATION POST (sgT)
It is retarted to spend almost 500 bucks on pistons to use them on stock Rods. It is very possible. Just foolish.
I have seen JE 13:1 pistons used with 91 ocatne a few times. Endyn RW is crap. i never use them and never will.
ARP's are a must with stock rods. yes.
You dont need an oil cooler. The oil doesnt run much hotter then a Vtec moor.
I have seen JE 13:1 pistons used with 91 ocatne a few times. Endyn RW is crap. i never use them and never will.
ARP's are a must with stock rods. yes.
You dont need an oil cooler. The oil doesnt run much hotter then a Vtec moor.
04-30-2002, 02:46 PM
#14
Honda-Tech Member
Re: FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR INFORMATION POST (simple4012)
very nice. one thing
the ECU
why not list the AEM EMS?
I know nobody knows how to use them but still, in the near future they will be one of, if not the strongest ecu on the market.
the ECU
why not list the AEM EMS?
I know nobody knows how to use them but still, in the near future they will be one of, if not the strongest ecu on the market.
05-01-2002, 05:24 AM
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Re: FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR INFORMATION POST (simple4012)
Ok so now we know what some recommendations are regarding what parts are needed...
I'm a bit confused about how to keep oil in the VTEC head though, and some issue about oil squirters in the cylinders?
Q1: Which DOHC VTEC engines come with (piston) oil squirters and is it possible to install oil squirters in a frankenstein? I hear it's tricky... any directions?
Q2: Does the VTEC head require another oil channel? Doesn't the stock non-VTEC head need oil at all?
Thanks
I'm a bit confused about how to keep oil in the VTEC head though, and some issue about oil squirters in the cylinders?
Q1: Which DOHC VTEC engines come with (piston) oil squirters and is it possible to install oil squirters in a frankenstein? I hear it's tricky... any directions?
Q2: Does the VTEC head require another oil channel? Doesn't the stock non-VTEC head need oil at all?
Thanks
05-09-2002, 02:59 AM
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...
Endyn RW is crap. i never use them and never will.
...was going to slam that statement... until I got to the next sentence...
[Modified by Zeus, 6:00 AM 5/9/2002]
11-03-2002, 06:04 PM
#21
Honda-Tech Member
Re: too many caps (Zygspeed)
are the b16 Y1 cable trannys bad i have a y1 with lsd? and would a pwo ecu work? i have a 91 integra gs with a b16a in it need more power!! hehe let me know
11-03-2002, 10:48 PM
#23
shit post warrior
Re:(simple4012)
LSVTEC bock WILD: (250)
Resleeve with Golden Eagle Sleeves 85 MM bore (1000)
JE 12.5/13.0 pistons (Ross also will do) (485)
CROWER connecting rods (500)
Resleeve with Golden Eagle Sleeves 85 MM bore (1000)
JE 12.5/13.0 pistons (Ross also will do) (485)
CROWER connecting rods (500)
B20VTEC block WILD: (900)
GOLDEN EAGLE 86MM SLEEVES (1000)
Custom 12.5/13.0 Pistons (500)
95 mm Crank (800???)
Deck Plate (machine shop cost)
GOLDEN EAGLE 86MM SLEEVES (1000)
Custom 12.5/13.0 Pistons (500)
95 mm Crank (800???)
Deck Plate (machine shop cost)
Thanks
bump 