Okay, this has been debated before in many other treads but never to an end that I can remember. Time once and for all to end it. State your position, argument, proof, and anything else you can think of. Please keep it civil as this is the "wheel and tire forum" and apparently is exempt from the stupidity and immaturity that seems plague other forums.

<FONT COLOR="blue"><FONT SIZE="4"><u>Is wider better? If so; when is it and when is it not? Why?</U></FONT></FONT>


My goal is to have a thread I can link back to every time someone comes on asking if wider is better. I am counting on every single one of you regulars (you know whom you are) to clear this up for me and others once and for all.

Cheers and thank you.


(Also thank you for celebrating my 1000th post)


Modified by old man neri at 10:18 PM 3/6/2006

 

To me, the question isn't whether wider is better, but rather, whether other things are more important. Here's why.

Myth: I should get wider tires because that is the easiest way to give me better performance.

Fact: Differences between one make/model of tire and another are almost always far, far greater than differences between one size of a given tire and another that's slightly wider. So therefore, unless you're already using the stickiest tires possible, if you're looking for better performance, you'll find a whole lot more improvement by concentrating on getting stickier tires, rather than wider tires. (OTOH, if you're talking about driving on a racetrack with R compound tires, then sure, go for the wider tires.)

Here's one other misconception:

Myth: Wider tires have a bigger contact patch and put more rubber on the road.

Fact: As long as the tires are inflated and supporting the weight of the car, the size of the contact patch depends on the weight of the car and the air pressure in the tires, not on the width of the tires. If you have a 2640-pound car (like an Integra Type R) and you inflate the tires to 33 pounds per square inch, the size of the four contact patches will total 80 square inches. That is true regardless of whether your tires are skinny 175/60-15's or 225/45-15 steamrollers. (Reference.) Whatever advantage there may be to wider tires comes from changing the shape of the contact patch, not its size.

Congrats on the post milestone!

 

I think it's necessary to ascertain whether we mean wider tires on a given rim or wider tires on an appropriately wider rim. I don't think that squeezing a 225 onto a 6.5" rim will help anything, since it will be hard to keep the contact patch flat. However, a 225 on a 7.5" rim might have a nice flat contact patch and good sidewall support. So, do you mean wider tires on a stock rim?


Dan

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LudemanDan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> So, do you mean wider tires on a stock rim?


</TD></TR></TABLE>

For sake of argument, both cases. Thus, "if so, when?"

Thanks for the input.

 

Should we bring up the fact of the difference in the tread width and sidewall size on both all-season and summer performance tires? Would nsxstasy or old man neri like to touch on that? (I would say something, but I'm really not sure if what I'd say would be right)
Also, since this is a FAQ thread, i guess, does nsxstasy want to post his top-7 tire categories (as you have in many other threads)? And maybe make this a sticky?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by msedacca &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Should we bring up the fact of the difference in the tread width and sidewall size on both all-season and summer performance tires? Would nsxstasy or old man neri like to touch on that? (I would say something, but I'm really not sure if what I'd say would be right)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

True, good thing to bring up. I don't know how much influence that has either.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Also, since this is a FAQ thread, i guess, does nsxstasy want to post his top-7 tire categories (as you have in many other threads)? And maybe make this a sticky?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wasn't meant to be a FAQ but nto a bad idea. The downside to this is that new tires come out and others get discontinued all the time. The information would have to be updated on a constant basis.

 

I found some info

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's inaccurate to assume that as the section width or tread width increases that the contact patch area also increases. Nor does it remain constant as [Vertical Force] / [Constant Inflation Pressure] suggests. Conceivably, it could decrease depending on the relative vertical stiffnesses. But what will change is the shape of the contact patch, becoming shorter in the longitudinal direction as it is made wider (assuming a constant load), and this may be partly responsible for more uniform unit loading over the area of the contact patch. All else equal, integrating a more uniform unit load and associated grip coefficient function over the entire contact patch should give more total lateral grip. The wider tire probably also has higher vertical and lateral spring rates, meaning less camber loss and lateral distortion in actual driving respectively.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

also these facts seem to be important.
1) Wider tyres are more prone to aquaplaning.
2) Wider tyres are more sensitive to camber control.
3) Wider tyres on the same rims might not perform as expected, as rim width relative to tread width can have a significant effect.
4) It is virtually impossible to get a result with all other things being equal as there are a lot of variables.

It is also important that the car be set up correctly for wider tires if there is any possible advantage and under what circumstances/conditions. You don't see any rally cars driving with wide tires in the snow. So it comes back to the great compromise. Unless one wants to own about 10 different sets of tires for every condition that he/she may encounter in the morning on the way to work.

I think there is a big marketing thing onbehalf of manufacturers. The cars look meaner and better if they have wider tires. People are willing to spend more on that.

other stuff I have found:

1)Soft compound tires are required to be wider in order for the side-wall to support the weight of the car. Also to allow them to last longer. Harder tires can afford to be narrower and still last.
2)Wider tires, assuming all other factors being equal, commonly have stiffer side-walls and experience less roll. This gives better cornering performance.
3)asphalt is not a uniform surface. Even with steamrollers to flatten the asphalt, the surface is still somewhat irregular, especially over the with of a tire. Drag racers can therefore increase the probability or likelihood of making contact with the road by using a wider tire
4)I personally think wider tires allow for a bit better speed and efficiancy as the tire will not have to deform (flat spot at the bottom) as much to allow for the same contact patch area. The less deformation the less energy wasted.


Cool link: http://www.carbibles.com/


Comments anyone?

 

Another fact to add to what you wrote...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by old man neri &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2)Wider tires, assuming all other factors being equal, commonly have stiffer side-walls and experience less roll. This gives better cornering performance.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wider tires are often used with larger diameter wheels, in "plus one" and "plus two" (or more) fitments. Using larger wheels, while maintaining the same diameter tires as typically done, means that the sidewalls are shorter. Shorter sidewalls give less flex and more direct handling (as well as harsher ride comfort and greater susceptibility to damage from potholes).

 

actually what I meant was.

Sorry I can't find a post but he did it with me and a number of other posters in Wheel and Tire.

He sets up a list of the Summer performance for
1. Extreme Summer Performance
2. Ultra High Performance
3. Budget Performance

etc etc with corresponding tires. So far that is the best info I've seen anywhere regarding tires, so I thought he might want to add that.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by old man neri &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Wasn't meant to be a FAQ but nto a bad idea. The downside to this is that new tires come out and others get discontinued all the time. The information would have to be updated on a constant basis.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It just seems like a lot of the time I come in here, someone who is new to the Wheel/Tire scene is asking the same novice questions I was asking and nsxstasy goes through the same process with each one. That's what I was trying to touch on, not necessarily "is wider better" (not trying to steal your thread/post here, just trying to help)

 

You're referring to my posts like this one.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Let's start by taking a step back for an overview. Think of tires across a spectrum from the stickiest, fastest-wearing tires to the less sticky, longer-lasting tires, and you come out with a list that looks like this, starting with the stickiest and working down from there:

1. Drag Radials: BFGoodrich g-Force T/A Drag Radial (won't last very long)

2. Other R Compound Tires: Hoosier R3S04 and A3S05, Toyo RA-1, etc (typical treadlife 2-4K miles)

3. Specialty Super-Sticky Street Tires: Falken Azenis RT-615 (typical treadlife 10K miles)

4. Best Top-of-the-Line Street Tires: Goodyear F1 GS-D3, Bridgestone S-03, Dunlop SP Sport Maxx, etc (typical treadlife 15-25K miles)

5. "Value" Top-of-the-Line Street Tires: Toyo T-1R, Kumho Ecsta MX (typical treadlife 15-25K miles)

6. Budget Performance, "Bang for the Buck" Tires: Yokohama AVS ES100, Kumho Ecsta SPT, Dunlop Direzza DZ101, etc (typical treadlife 25-40K miles)

7. All-season tires: Kumho Ecsta ASX, Pirelli PZero Nero M+S, etc (typical treadlife 25-50K miles)</TD></TR></TABLE>

VIOLA!

 

I'm planning on getting some used hoosiers and having them mounted on some cheap rims for autocross. do you think 225's are too much for, say, a 15x7" rim?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rniederlando &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm planning on getting some used hoosiers and having them mounted on some cheap rims for autocross. do you think 225's are too much for, say, a 15x7" rim?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, but it depends on what car you're putting them on. For some cars, that combination may be too big.

Remember, you need to not only consider whether a tire size can fit on a wheel size, but also whether the combination can fit on a car. Which depends on the car, the offset of the wheels, whether the fenders have been rolled, etc.

 

in this case they're going on an EK civic

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rniederlando &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">in this case they're going on an EK civic</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then they might be okay for autocross, depending on the wheel offset and whether they'll rub. For street use, I would stick to 195/55-15 or 205/50-15. If they're for street use and autocross both, then consider the Azenis RT-615 in 205/50-15 (which is oversized and really more like a 215/50).