I am trying to decide between boring/honing a block to run oversized pistons or having replacemetn iron sleeves pressed in for the oversize pistons. I have called several local machine shops, and prices on sleeves range from $200-$500 with the most reliable shop charging the least. The hone/bore on stock sleeves would be $100ish at worst, though none of the locla machine shops cna do the hone according to honda spec, they would jsut want to do it like iron sleeves.
has anyone had the hone done like an iron sleeved block before? as in failed to hone the stock sleeve like honda specifies...if anyone has let me know how it turned out, or should i say screw it and get sleeves? i am only running type-s pistons but need to run them in 87.25....

 

There is a specific procedure in the helms for honing and boring FRM...
If you want an engine with poor compression that burns oil, use the shops that don't want to do the job properly.
Actually, if they are unable to hone the FRM properly to Honda specs, I would question their ability to get the clearances right anyhow.

 

have you ever had an FRM block honed before?

 

I would find a better machine shop to hone your block, no need to resleeve if your running the type-s piston it is designed to work with the FRM sleeves. If a shop can't hone your block to honda spec, they will most likely turn your block into a door stop with their sleeve job. I know that honda recommends that you hone your block if your cylinder walls show any signs of scaring/wear. Any reason you need to run the oversize piston?

 

what about the honda spec process can none of the machine shops do?

if the iron liners are cheap enough then just go with that. my guess is the machine shop don't have the specific stone? if your worried about them doing it like an iron sleve block then i would just have the iron inserts put in.

 

the shops i have been to say no problem on the stone, its the low rpm they have issues with. the pressue is not somethign that thgey are worried about either, but 45-50 rpm is what htey say they cannot do, and some have claimed to hav honed h22 sleeves without an issue....but i am just not sure if htey are not doing it exactly liek honda says if its really worth it to take a chance.

as far as running the OS piston the block has high milage and is worn some, with one bore being in acceptable stock range, one at the absolute outside limit, and the other 2 just beyond the outside limit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by v4lu3s &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the shops i have been to say no problem on the stone, its the low rpm they have issues with. the pressue is not somethign that thgey are worried about either, but 45-50 rpm is what htey say they cannot do, and some have claimed to hav honed h22 sleeves without an issue....but i am just not sure if htey are not doing it exactly liek honda says if its really worth it to take a chance.

as far as running the OS piston the block has high milage and is worn some, with one bore being in acceptable stock range, one at the absolute outside limit, and the other 2 just beyond the outside limit. </TD></TR></TABLE>

that weird, i thought that the stone would be the problem, but its actually the rpm thats the problem.. i think that as long as the stone is the right one, and they use the right presure a little more rpm might not be a bad thing. i was worried about the hardness of the material and size of the "scratches" that the stone makes..

 

thats what i had though, even the local napa machine shop said that the stone was not an issue, it was speed and pressure there, but the bigger shops have said rpm, the thing i am worried about is if the rpm is an issue its a LOT harder to do jsut 20 cycles.

 

if the iron sleeves are within your price range go with them, you will get better longevity out of em....

i have never had a block honed, but i do remember the section in the manual about the stone and spec for doing all this, it was quite specific, im not one to take chances on things like that though, i dont want to get it all in and have to take it back out again bc i saved a buck....but thats just me.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if the iron sleeves are within your price range go with them, you will get better longevity out of em....

i have never had a block honed, but i do remember the section in the manual about the stone and spec for doing all this, it was quite specific, im not one to take chances on things like that though, i dont want to get it all in and have to take it back out again bc i saved a buck....but thats just me.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

FRM has better wear rates than iron liners. Putting in liners because local machine shops can't handle his engine properly is a big mistake.

 

yeah my feeling about the way honda words it for the FRM blocks to me means that its very important to do it that way. for an iron sleeved block it basically just says "hone it."

I would rather keep the FRM sleeves since they hardly wear compared to iron and also there is less friciton between rings/pistons and sleeves compared to iron.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alphajesse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">FRM has better wear rates than iron liners. Putting in liners because local machine shops can't handle his engine properly is a big mistake. </TD></TR></TABLE>


so what do you suggest?

spend $150-250 in shipping PLUS cost of bore and hone to send it to a shop in another state or city that can do it? all the while risking shipping damage to my block? and then having to wait a lot longer for the work.

or perhaps i should be buying another h22a? its not as if i dont own 3 of them already.

or better yet i should sell my pistons try and find another set of pistons that are slightly over size enough to fit into the worn sleeves of my block?

or best of all, just keep driving on the engine in my car right now and when it breaks start riding a bicycle?

are you jsut spouting off what you think and hear on these forums or have you had FRM sleeves honed before?

 

hmm is wasnt aware that FRM wore better....i can see that the poster is very concerned with the fact that i havent done this before....but i dont think buying another block is necessary, maybe just drive your block somewhere?
also i dont think the a vs. b piston size difference is gonna fit one way or the other, espescially if your block already has the bigger pistons, even just one....

im sure some of these people have actually serviced a block instead of sleeving it when they blew....someone is bound to chime in.....

 

what i would hope to find is someone who actually has had it done and knows it was done to honda spec.

FRM to me is a superior substance for long term wear, on an h22 typically the rings will fail long before the sleeves, while most iron seeved blocks will show greater wear on the sleeves rather than the rings.

I would love to stick with FRM but the fact that one of the best machine shops in houston says they do NOT bore the "composite" blocks, they will gladly sleeve it says to me its probably not worth the effort. This shop is not a performance shop, just a high quality machine shop. THey have been in business for 30+ years and I know more than 20 people who have gone to them without ever having an issue. In comparison one shop that says they can hone and bore FRM, well I know 3 out of 4 people that have blown up engines from them using wrong specs.

 

one more bump to see if anyone has actually bored/honed frm sleeves....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by v4lu3s &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">one more bump to see if anyone has actually bored/honed frm sleeves....</TD></TR></TABLE>

You should have picked up factory OS pistons... not standard size ones.

FRM is lighter, makes the block stiffer, transfers heat better and has better wear characteristics.
The procedure spelled out in the helms isn't that complicated... I don't know what to say.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alphajesse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You should have picked up factory OS pistons... not standard size ones.

FRM is lighter, makes the block stiffer, transfers heat better and has better wear characteristics.
The procedure spelled out in the helms isn't that complicated... I don't know what to say.</TD></TR></TABLE>


listen dumbass you are telling me nothing new.
i DO have ******* oversized factory pistons. hell i even said it in the first post.

i am also fully aware of the capabilites and technology behind FRM, and have been aware of it for years. thus my questions since i would rather keep the FRM sleeves.

I myself do not own a Sunnen hone. If I did have an extra $5k or $10k laying around i would go buy one. But, I don't have that money for this, so I have to deal with machine shops that do not see the point of spending the extra $3000+ to have a hone that can go as slow as 45-50rpm. Most hones that machines shops use can only go as slow as 200rpm. The Helm manual specifies 45-50 rpm, a specific grade of stone, and a specific pressure. The shops can handle the pressure, the stone, but they just cannot seem to make a 200 rpm hone run at 50 rpm, and somehow i DONT see them taking it apart to re-engineer it for one job.

 

why don't you call up your local honda and ask them what they'd do if the issue came up, they'd either do it themselves or know who to refer you to.

 

i actually did try that and they said they do not rebuild engines, they would instead find a good used replacement or purchase a brand new engine from Honda.

 

damn, that sucks. good luck.

 

just for refrence this is what the helms says

honing:

use only a rgid hone.
honing stone: GC-600-J or finer (for nonferrous materials)
Presure: 200-300kPa (28-43psi)
Honing RPM: 45-50rpm
honing thickness: less than .02 mm (.0008in) do not hone more than 20 cycles
honing lube: oil type
roughness of finished surface: 1.2S
honing pattern: 60 degree cross hatch


Values, i do agree with you about the FRM, it is very hard and strong.. i think that if there is a shope that says they can do it , ship it to them and give them the exact spec in MM and Inches and then when you get the block back measure up and down the bore to check the specs.. just because 3 out of 4 people had engines built out of spec doesn't mean that don't know how to bore a motor. Boring a motor is all done by the machine.. building a motor on the other hand involves alot of hand set specs.

end all if a shop says they can do it.. express to them your worries about the precision of the work, and see what kind of garentee they can give you. but i tend to agree with you if a shop says they can't do the right rpm or presure, then don't do that.

let us know how it turns out.. also if you do get the frm bored i would like some pics of it.. i saw some pics while back of an old thread that i kept bumping because the kid looked as if they bored away his frm and was runing on 60 degree cross hatched aluminum. good luck!

 

I decided to go ahead with sleeves rather than stress over it. I may end up doing a hone on another block in teh future, but the fact is I cann otwait long enough to ship at this time of the year. The rebuild I am doing is prompted by the 30 seconds of oil light at start up every day it below 40 degrees here. I know that is not good, and the noises my engine makes is not good.

I had a tlk with the shop that I trust and basically they do not see the need to spend the money on a higher end Sunnen Hone than what htey already ahve, since what they have works perfectly for every other engine EXCEPT the h22/23, f20c, f22c and c30/32. They just don't realistically see enough of those engines to justify spending $10k on another hone. I trust them enough to work in steel since they have built engines for friends who made 1500 mile road trips within 3 days of the engine being built.

 

oh yeah and honda did update that spec on the hone for the sleeves, they allow as much as 60rpm now. there is a honda service news article that is more current.

 

I took a H22 block to a local V8 shop and gave them a photocopy of the Helm page that describes the hone process. They said no problem and that block has worked great for the last 30k miles. Just depends on the shop I suppose.

 

what did it look like after the hone.. were the cross hatching really visible? everyone knows the nice smooth grayish color that the frm looks like when you pull a 100k plus motor.. just curious what a fress hone looks like