Sup guys, i know this is the place to ask because you all autox or race. heres my situation. one of my calipers has seized on the disc and well im going to replace it. but instead of replacing the one bad caliper i want to upgrade my brakes (faster car, needs bigger brakes) so heres my question. are Wilwood brakes any good? How much does a set of those run? (94 civic ex, already have 4 wheel ABS, 4 wheel disc brakes) any alternatives to those brakes are welcomed. TIA
Joe - soon to autocross

 

Well a few things to consider -

1. Autocross cars dont need big brakes
2. You never (except maybe in a school) see brake fade an autoX course
3. Big brakes will most likely throw you into a modified class
4. Big brakes do little to decrease stopping distances

That aside... a common swap would be ITR brake hardware - probably your most cost effective solution since its OEM, and it works very well, if you are bent on upgrading your brakes. Also, fastbrakes sells a nice setup. I will agree that the civic brakes are tiny.....

I would replace the seized caliper with a reman. unit, put in some good brake fluid (valvoline synpower, ate, castrol) and put in some carbotech kelate metallic (green) pads if this is an autocross car. Just using them in the front (maybe HPS in the rear) will really make the brakes come alive.

Ryan

 

Ok maybe i phrased this wrong. i didnt mean big brakes. i mean an entire new KIT rotors calipers and all. i want a slotted/cross drilled disc for heat dispurtion so the car stops faster.

 

don't get "slotted-drilled" unless you like "cracked-warped".

I have an ECHC H1 95 hatch that I race with NASA and others. I have done the Type R front brake upgrade and it is PLENTY of brakes for any lightweight Honda. Just be sure when you buy rotors for whatever upgrade you decide on, that you get high quality (like Brembo) non-slotted or drilled rotors; slotted/drilled have cracked on me at the track. The standard ones eventually crack too, but last mucho longer than the slotted/drilled types. I believe that all the slotted/drilled is good for is the "Fast and Furious" look.....

here is what I'd do: go to the junkyard and find a set of front calipers from a 92+ Accord wagon. rebuild them. go to AutoZone and buy a set of Brembo Prelude VTEC rotors. have them drilled for 4x100. take your caliper brackets to a good machine shop and have them machined down .12 inches. go back to the junkyard and buy a pair of front 94+ Integra spindles. install a new pair of front wheel bearings while you are at it. order a set of HP+ pads (HB 143). grab a couple cans of Ford HD brake fluid. install the above and you will be amazed at the braking ability of your car.

If the above is a little too much for you, you can try Brian Hasty; I think he has complete "kits" available for the above....

later,
Todd

 

haha i would never buy cross drilled AND slotted rotors. id break one of those on the street let alone the track i meant one OR the other.
so brembo rotors with stock calipers? that could work. Hmm...
THANKS
anyone else?

 

I don't have any personal experience with Wilwood brakes but have heard nothing but good things about them. Especially performance/dollar ratio wise.

"Big brakes" won't do a lot for decreasing stopping distance in AutoX but will for road racing. But you'll only see the advantages after repeated hard braking. They just have more mass to absorb heat. And may actually be detrimental by way of added unsprung weight. Just FYI.

I think Todd has some good ideas. But I'd go one step further and say to buy a good set of tires. That'll help in every performance aspect; braking, accelerating, and cornering.

 

The Wilwood brake kit is not designed for streetcars there are no dust boots on the pistons and you need to rebuild them at regular intervals. You will also need a 16" forged or a 16" high enternal volume wheel with the drop centre located at the outer wheel lip to fit over the calipers. I run Mugen MF8's for rain work and to get to events and a 3-piece 15" wheel with no drop centre at events to clear the calipers. You can save unsprung weight, around 8 lbs a corner with the Dynalite
calipers.

 

true, but it won't be detrimental to have bigger brake rotors and better pads.

This really depends on the course. Here in Vegas, we run on a road course at times where brake fade is experienced near the end of the course. But, your typical parking lot course, most likely not.

I beg to differ. But, this goes several different ways. You are probably only mentioned the INCREASED SIZE of the rotor. I tested my stock OEM braking system and found myself doing 130', 140', and 160' progressive stopping distances from 60mph. With the Fastbrake kit, i was doing 106', 110', and 115' progressive.

Fade was noticably less. Modulation MUCH better. Initial bite was incredible.

But, it depends on your budget and what you want to do with the car. ITR brakes will bump you up as well as a Wilwood kit, if you're speaking of autocross...if you don't mind, why not get the better brakes? If you want to cheat, use the integ brakes and keep them looking stock.

 

Oh my.

Please, please don't take this the wrong way, but you have much to learn young KAMiN.

Here's all you need:
New OE rotors
Replace that busted caliper with another OE part
Flush the old brake fluid with new.
Get some GOOD brake pads. The Kelated Metallic pads that Type-RJ suggested are supposed to be the shiznit for autocrossing. High friction coefficient, zero warm up. Might not be so good on the street.

At the end of the day, the friction between the road and the TIRES is always what stops your car. Not 13" cross drilled rotors. Not 4 piston calipers. Not the SS brake lines. The TIRES!

 

hehe i know. i know the mechanical aspect of my car, now i need the competition side.
ok so the wilwoods wont work for daily driving (sometimes, when its running)

What about a performance rotor? (e.g. slotted or drilled) just replace the broken caliper and get some good *** pads and tires ( i was paying attention )

 

Slotted/x-drilled rotors do not stop you any faster. They do not do not do not. I believe I read somewhere (and I'll see if I can find it) that they were designed for racing way back when brake pads sucked ***. They were designed to give the outgass from the brake pads somewhere to go. The thing is:

1. They're modifying the rotors to solve a problem with the pads. This is very similar to having knee surgery to fix a sore tooth.
2. The problem no longer exists with modern brake pads to the extreme as it once did. They do not outgass like they used to. No need for holes.

2 things I CAN garuntee about the x-drilled rotors though:
1) They will crack
2) They will cost you a bunch of money for no benefit whatsoever (see my points above)

In addition, by drilling holes in the rotor, you are reducing the pad to rotor interface area. Worse, you are removing the metal whose entire job is to absorb the heat. I know of no situation where this can possibly be a benefit.

OE vented rotors. That's all you need.

 

They are awesome on the street. I can definately attest that they are the **** for lightweight autocross cars. Work great when cold, little dusting, little noise. They have some serious intial bite. IF you want to use them in both front and rear, the pedal feel is awesome, however the back end can become squirelly under hard braking - fine for autoX, but not on the track (those pads would disintegrage on the track anyways). Pair this up with a set of sticky street tires and your car will STOP.

And its a cheap upgrade - new set of front rotors - $50, pads - $80 ($70 or so for rears), new caliper - $50(?), fluid - $6 (valvoline).

Now all that money you save by not buying a wilwood or brembo or fastbrakes kit you can go to an autoX school and learn how to drive - the best money is always spent on the driver. $400 for a weekend of an Evolution school will be worth more than any amount of money you dump into the car.

Ryan

 

Go here: http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/glossary/d.htm


[Modified by MaddMatt, 5:04 PM 3/12/2002]

 

Why do i keep reading this everywhere...

From Wilwood.com:
Interesting.

 

The biggest problem I see is that running big calipers means you have to run big rims. Which is better for autocrossing, 13" Rims (provided you class allows them) or big *** brakes? *Hint* it's not the brakes

 

ok just replace the oe rotors and calipers, good brake fluid and pads and ill be set? (gonna replace all 4)

 

ok im post whoring now
what about a 4 piston caliper
like baer?

 

that's what the fastbrake kit is. 4 piston caliper.

just replace the caliper. get some better pads, higher boiling point fluid and see how you like the brakes, if they aren't satisfactory, upgrade.

 

Ok ill start from there.
but i just wanna buy them so you can see the baer on the caliper through my rim y0! (KIDDING)
hehe. had to add a rice joke.

 

here's mine- 11.5" two piece rotors, and 15" K1's(had to shave the outer corners of the caliper a bit) -shitty pic:

 

advanti racing 10 spoke rims. 16x7

 

Increased rotors give you more mechanical advantage in slowing the wheel from moving, but what slows the car down is the contact/friction of the tire with the ground. This is why good tires do so much to improve braking. Even with 15" rotors, if your tires can't create enough friction to slow the car down then they'll just lock up and slide. You do have the advantage that you can lock the wheels faster, and if you can modulate this to keep the tires on the edge of adhesion the brakes will help in that respect, but it still comes down to the tires' ability to create enough friction to slow the car.

 

When I used to run street tires my stock brakes could easily brake more then the tires could take. Now that I run on R compound I'm upgrading my pads because the tires can take the stronger braking.

 

yup..... on my RX7, i'm running crap *** $20 autozone pads for street/autocross, but on kuhmo's that damn thing STOPS Its funny... on Panter Plus pads and kuhmo's my Saturn stops amazingly well. Tires play a huge part - however get your brakes in good working order. They're a safety item and you dont want to neglect them.

RJ

 

From Type-RJ...

From manveer...

Although many of the posts in this thread have digressed from the original question (and well some should, as it may save KAMiN some time, money and frustration), I believe these two quotes are really key to the issue of braking in competition.

Type-RJ's quote rings true no matter what, big brakes, small brakes, whatever. Learning how to drive a car is paramount to slowing down in a consistent and controlled manner. The transition from braking to steady-state cornering, no matter how brief it may seem, is tremendously important in autocrossing, and is often the determining factor between trophy and runner-up.

manveer's quote brings braking itself into perspective, in that you can have all the stopping power in the world, but if its not controllable, its darn near worthless. I've heard neophytes state that they could "lock 'em up anytime", so therefore they had good brakes. I've never known the ease of locking up the brakes to ever be an advantage in competition driving. Depending upon the application, bigger brakes can help making braking more controllable, but caliper rigidity, quality of pad, and fluid are indeed more of a determining factor in competition.