Keep the F or Swap for the H: The answers are here.
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Keep the F or Swap for the H: The answers are here.
Recently, the topic of "Should I keep the F, or swap for the H" has been flooding our forum once again. This is my attempt to answer that question once and for all.
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So you're trying to decide what to do. Build the F for NA? Boost the F? Swap for an H? The first thing you need to ask yourself is: What is it that you want out of your car?
The infamous H22 swap
If you are looking for a reliable, relatively low-maintenance boost in power, than this is for you. Assuming the install is done correctly and you have a healthy motor, an H22 swap will drop your quarter mile times from the 15 second range into the 14s. Many, many people have gone this route. You can use the Accord transmission if you like, as it bolts right up, but because of the Accord's fuel-efficient gearing you're going to lose a lot of the acceleration that you would have had with the H22 tranny. Personally, I would always use the H22 tranny.
Pros:
You can retain that great Honda reliability.
Quicker than the F22/F23. (stock vs stock)
Cons:
Although quicker, it's not THAT damn quick. Don't fool yourself into thinking you car can beat Vettes.
Turbocharging the F
This can become a complicated topic, but for simplicity's sake, I'm going to talk about boosting a STOCK motor. If you're looking for power, power, power, than this is the choice for you. F22 owner's, you're in luck. It seems that your motor loves boost. With iron sleeves and 8.8:1 compression, you motor can take a beating and keep on ticking. For simplicity's sake once again, let's say you run "low" boost - 6-8psi. Depending on your TUNING, you should be running at least 180whp, and 180-200 wtq. For comparison, a stock H22 is around 170whp and 140wtq. (This is AT THE WHEELS people, not flywheel.) You can easily piece together a nice turbo kit for around the same price (or less) as an H22 swap, and have tons more power and TORQUE.
F23 owners... Unfortunately, the problem that we have is weak ringlands. At low boost (6-8psi) our iron-sleeved, 9.3:1 compression motors will be strong, but eventually, those damn ringlands are going to break. Tuning will play a part in how long they last, but they're still going to give eventually. Upgraded pistons (and rods while you're at it) are the best way to go when boosting the F23. Expect similar (possibly slightly higher) numbers as F22s.
*Note: If you have an automatic transmission, it is generally a bad idea to boost your motor. The auto trannies don't like the extra power and almost always break.
*Note 2: TUNING! You must get your damn car tuned! That's all I'm going to say for now. I'll leave the more in-depth stuff for another thread.
Pros:
More power than the H22, and thus quicker.
Tons more fun.
Cons:
If you don't know a thing about FI, your car is NOT going to last.
Not as reliable, although just how much less is debatable. When boosting cars that were originally NA, things are going to break. Keep some money set aside just in case. (I will note that there are quite a few people with boosted F22s that have never had a problem.)
Swap an H22, and then boost
There are so many arguments on this topic that I'm really not going to go into much. Obviously, this route costs $$$$. 10.0:1 compression means tuning plays in even more important role. FRM sleeves mean you can't upgrade to forged pistons w/o resleeving the block. (The exception is Mahle pistons, and I will not comment on their quality/strength at this time.) If you are seriously considering this option, you should start doing a lot of research. There are a lot of opinions regarding the turbo H22 vs turbo F22/F23 debate, which I believe can get too complicated for the scope of this thread.
Building the F for NA
I'm going to keep this short and simple. There is not a whole lot of support for building a radical NA F-series motor. That's not to say parts cannot be found. However, the cost to power ratio here is very high, and for the most part, high-powered F-series motors is like uncharted territory.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is only a general summary of the "Should I swap or not" topic. If you choose the turbo route, there is much more information you will need to learn before proceeding.
<U>DISCLAIMER:</U> I'm not responsible for your choices, problems, screw ups, or dissatisfaction with any of the above choices.
All comments/corrections are welcome, but please make it intelligent and keep it clean. I will edit this post as necessary. The purpose of this thread is NOT to create a debate on which is better overall, but to guide someone into choosing the route that best suits their wants and needs.
*Edited to make it a little more up-to-date.
Modified by philadd at 7:37 PM 2/6/2007
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're trying to decide what to do. Build the F for NA? Boost the F? Swap for an H? The first thing you need to ask yourself is: What is it that you want out of your car?
The infamous H22 swap
If you are looking for a reliable, relatively low-maintenance boost in power, than this is for you. Assuming the install is done correctly and you have a healthy motor, an H22 swap will drop your quarter mile times from the 15 second range into the 14s. Many, many people have gone this route. You can use the Accord transmission if you like, as it bolts right up, but because of the Accord's fuel-efficient gearing you're going to lose a lot of the acceleration that you would have had with the H22 tranny. Personally, I would always use the H22 tranny.
Pros:
You can retain that great Honda reliability.
Quicker than the F22/F23. (stock vs stock)
Cons:
Although quicker, it's not THAT damn quick. Don't fool yourself into thinking you car can beat Vettes.
Turbocharging the F
This can become a complicated topic, but for simplicity's sake, I'm going to talk about boosting a STOCK motor. If you're looking for power, power, power, than this is the choice for you. F22 owner's, you're in luck. It seems that your motor loves boost. With iron sleeves and 8.8:1 compression, you motor can take a beating and keep on ticking. For simplicity's sake once again, let's say you run "low" boost - 6-8psi. Depending on your TUNING, you should be running at least 180whp, and 180-200 wtq. For comparison, a stock H22 is around 170whp and 140wtq. (This is AT THE WHEELS people, not flywheel.) You can easily piece together a nice turbo kit for around the same price (or less) as an H22 swap, and have tons more power and TORQUE.
F23 owners... Unfortunately, the problem that we have is weak ringlands. At low boost (6-8psi) our iron-sleeved, 9.3:1 compression motors will be strong, but eventually, those damn ringlands are going to break. Tuning will play a part in how long they last, but they're still going to give eventually. Upgraded pistons (and rods while you're at it) are the best way to go when boosting the F23. Expect similar (possibly slightly higher) numbers as F22s.
*Note: If you have an automatic transmission, it is generally a bad idea to boost your motor. The auto trannies don't like the extra power and almost always break.
*Note 2: TUNING! You must get your damn car tuned! That's all I'm going to say for now. I'll leave the more in-depth stuff for another thread.
Pros:
More power than the H22, and thus quicker.
Tons more fun.
Cons:
If you don't know a thing about FI, your car is NOT going to last.
Not as reliable, although just how much less is debatable. When boosting cars that were originally NA, things are going to break. Keep some money set aside just in case. (I will note that there are quite a few people with boosted F22s that have never had a problem.)
Swap an H22, and then boost
There are so many arguments on this topic that I'm really not going to go into much. Obviously, this route costs $$$$. 10.0:1 compression means tuning plays in even more important role. FRM sleeves mean you can't upgrade to forged pistons w/o resleeving the block. (The exception is Mahle pistons, and I will not comment on their quality/strength at this time.) If you are seriously considering this option, you should start doing a lot of research. There are a lot of opinions regarding the turbo H22 vs turbo F22/F23 debate, which I believe can get too complicated for the scope of this thread.
Building the F for NA
I'm going to keep this short and simple. There is not a whole lot of support for building a radical NA F-series motor. That's not to say parts cannot be found. However, the cost to power ratio here is very high, and for the most part, high-powered F-series motors is like uncharted territory.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is only a general summary of the "Should I swap or not" topic. If you choose the turbo route, there is much more information you will need to learn before proceeding.
<U>DISCLAIMER:</U> I'm not responsible for your choices, problems, screw ups, or dissatisfaction with any of the above choices.
All comments/corrections are welcome, but please make it intelligent and keep it clean. I will edit this post as necessary. The purpose of this thread is NOT to create a debate on which is better overall, but to guide someone into choosing the route that best suits their wants and needs.
*Edited to make it a little more up-to-date.
Modified by philadd at 7:37 PM 2/6/2007
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Re: Keep the F or Swap for the H: The answers are here. (JakeIsCool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its really a no brainer, a stock h can beat a boosted f unless the f has some crazy setup.</TD></TR></TABLE>
no way in hell. boosted F at low boost will smoke a stock H22.
no way in hell. boosted F at low boost will smoke a stock H22.
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Re: Keep the F or Swap for the H: The answers are here. (JakeIsCool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its really a no brainer, a stock h can beat a boosted f unless the f has some crazy setup.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's funny, I've seen nothing but the opposite of that. A boosted F will generally have more horsepower and gobs more torque. Those that have done both have all said that their boosted F was faster.
Please post some kind of information to back up this claim. No offense, but right now your post is useless.
That's funny, I've seen nothing but the opposite of that. A boosted F will generally have more horsepower and gobs more torque. Those that have done both have all said that their boosted F was faster.
Please post some kind of information to back up this claim. No offense, but right now your post is useless.
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Re: Keep the F or Swap for the H: The answers are here. (philadd)
Boosted F23 > N/A H22
I've numerous stories of boosted Accords beating SRT-4s, Mustang GTs, etc. One even hung with a Z06 from a stop. Nothing crazy was done to their motors. Just a simple turbo kit, free-flowing exhaust, and some tuning.
The long gears on the Accord are perfect for a turbo setup.
I've numerous stories of boosted Accords beating SRT-4s, Mustang GTs, etc. One even hung with a Z06 from a stop. Nothing crazy was done to their motors. Just a simple turbo kit, free-flowing exhaust, and some tuning.
The long gears on the Accord are perfect for a turbo setup.
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Re: (ThunderCat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ThunderCat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">when you said low-maintanence for the H,does that mean the F isnt low-maintanence? meaning big bucks to have it done AND taken care of? btw thanks for the write-up</TD></TR></TABLE>
F is low maintenance NA. When it's boosted, oil has to be changed, turbo has to be built, tuning has to be done, blocks have to be built if running a higher psi...it's so dependent on the abilities of the tuner/user unlike an NA H motor, which by all means should just drop in and go. Turbocharging can be done for as low as $1,000, but anyone with a good setup knows you'll be spending at least $2000 for the parts alone, and tuning is up to the end user. At the minimum, you'd want to use a program like Hondata, and most optimally, AEM EMS standalone, but an EMS is over $1,000 by itself typically.
Good writeup phil
F is low maintenance NA. When it's boosted, oil has to be changed, turbo has to be built, tuning has to be done, blocks have to be built if running a higher psi...it's so dependent on the abilities of the tuner/user unlike an NA H motor, which by all means should just drop in and go. Turbocharging can be done for as low as $1,000, but anyone with a good setup knows you'll be spending at least $2000 for the parts alone, and tuning is up to the end user. At the minimum, you'd want to use a program like Hondata, and most optimally, AEM EMS standalone, but an EMS is over $1,000 by itself typically.
Good writeup phil
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Re: (Vt4cPwn35)
Many of you know 94accorddx or accord94dx, he sold his boosted f22 accord to Athiest here on honda-tech before he moved to japan. Fmax turbo kit, put down 180wheel torque at 3500 rpm and 150hp. I raced him on the highway 2nd-3-4th, and by 4th he was at least a car length or more behind. If you took the same car, and put a 200hp n/a motor in one and a 200hp f/i in the other, the n/a car would win everytime.
HP and TQ isnt everything
1. 7600rpm redline instead of 6250 on the f22.
2. High FD on the h22.
HP and TQ isnt everything
1. 7600rpm redline instead of 6250 on the f22.
2. High FD on the h22.
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From: Redmond, WA, USA
If I'm looking for 300-400 range in horsepower for least overall price (labor, all parts included, etc) which should I go for: Boosting my F22 or swapping H22 + boost or all-motor?
I know initially it's F22, but I heard I'd have to put tons into it to build it up enough to handle the boost to pump out 300+ HP?
So in the end, all prices including labor (I'm not the most mechanically abled person), which way is the cheapest for 300+ HP?
Thanks!
I know initially it's F22, but I heard I'd have to put tons into it to build it up enough to handle the boost to pump out 300+ HP?
So in the end, all prices including labor (I'm not the most mechanically abled person), which way is the cheapest for 300+ HP?
Thanks!
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Re: (chiefyaccord)
If you dump more money into it, the H. There's enough aftermarket support to do it without having parts custom fabbed. If all things were equal, the engine making more power initially will usually make more power under boost. Don't expect 3-400 hp with 'the least cost'....that'll be 5000 for engine+building it up. THen you'll have to boost and tune it.
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Re: (JakeIsCool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Many of you know 94accorddx or accord94dx, he sold his boosted f22 accord to Athiest here on honda-tech before he moved to japan. Fmax turbo kit, put down 180wheel torque at 3500 rpm and 150hp. I raced him on the highway 2nd-3-4th, and by 4th he was at least a car length or more behind. If you took the same car, and put a 200hp n/a motor in one and a 200hp f/i in the other, the n/a car would win everytime.
HP and TQ isnt everything
1. 7600rpm redline instead of 6250 on the f22.
2. High FD on the h22.</TD></TR></TABLE>
only 150 whp with the fmax kit? that seems insanely low...was he using stagnent pondwater for gas or something? MOST people that boost the f at around 8psi (depending on their level of tuning) end up at around at least 175HP, most at least 200 or more...unless he had an auto trans and was like running on 3 cylinders, i dont see that happening
also, you can really only use the redline argument if you have the exact same gear ratios (including tire size)....is there any explanation behind that?
HP and TQ isnt everything
1. 7600rpm redline instead of 6250 on the f22.
2. High FD on the h22.</TD></TR></TABLE>
only 150 whp with the fmax kit? that seems insanely low...was he using stagnent pondwater for gas or something? MOST people that boost the f at around 8psi (depending on their level of tuning) end up at around at least 175HP, most at least 200 or more...unless he had an auto trans and was like running on 3 cylinders, i dont see that happening
also, you can really only use the redline argument if you have the exact same gear ratios (including tire size)....is there any explanation behind that?
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Re: (fw190bvi)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fw190bvi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i vote to put this into the basic guide...
good write up. it is simple, and doesnt make any bold or debatle claims, just the basic facts </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you, that was exactly what I was aiming for.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Fmax turbo kit, put down 180wheel torque at 3500 rpm and 150hp. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Therein lies the problem. If his max whp was only at 150, then either his tune was way off in the upper rpms, he wasn't holding boost, or he was running on three cylinders. Either way, his car was not running the way it should.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">put a 200hp n/a motor in one and a 200hp f/i in the other, the n/a car would win everytime.
HP and TQ isnt everything
1. 7600rpm redline instead of 6250 on the f22.
2. High FD on the h22.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you're missing something here. A healthy F22 on low boost (with anything bigger than a T25) and a decent tune is going to have more than 200 flywheel hp.
And saying that 200hp NA will always beat 200hp FI is a pretty blanket and bold statement. But again, that is not the point of this thread, which in all honestly, I think you missed.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Este_Cara »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do you guy recommend piston and connecting rod also for the f22 since the block is already come with iron sleeve?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Depends on your horsepower goals. Set a reasonable goal, with consideration of your budget, and we can go from there. If you're only looking for a max wheel horsepower of 225, than I would say the stock F22 piston and rods would be fine assuming the car is well tuned. However, it's never a bad idea to upgrade.
good write up. it is simple, and doesnt make any bold or debatle claims, just the basic facts
</TD></TR></TABLE>Thank you, that was exactly what I was aiming for.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Fmax turbo kit, put down 180wheel torque at 3500 rpm and 150hp. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Therein lies the problem. If his max whp was only at 150, then either his tune was way off in the upper rpms, he wasn't holding boost, or he was running on three cylinders. Either way, his car was not running the way it should.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">put a 200hp n/a motor in one and a 200hp f/i in the other, the n/a car would win everytime.
HP and TQ isnt everything
1. 7600rpm redline instead of 6250 on the f22.
2. High FD on the h22.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you're missing something here. A healthy F22 on low boost (with anything bigger than a T25) and a decent tune is going to have more than 200 flywheel hp.
And saying that 200hp NA will always beat 200hp FI is a pretty blanket and bold statement. But again, that is not the point of this thread, which in all honestly, I think you missed.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Este_Cara »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do you guy recommend piston and connecting rod also for the f22 since the block is already come with iron sleeve?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Depends on your horsepower goals. Set a reasonable goal, with consideration of your budget, and we can go from there. If you're only looking for a max wheel horsepower of 225, than I would say the stock F22 piston and rods would be fine assuming the car is well tuned. However, it's never a bad idea to upgrade.
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Re: (JakeIsCool)
let me know where you're getting that work done then, thats just about a steal for having a block re-sleeved, (not sure you wanna keep those frm sleeves), a nice turbo, and all the fuel management necessary to make 300-400 HP.......if you can get that all for less than 3000 please let me know cause i could sure use some parts that inexpensive
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Re: (JakeIsCool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">5000 + boost and tune? If you cant build, boost and tune for less than 3000 dollars, something is wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>
In his case, that price includes labor. He mentioned that he would have to have someone else perform the labor, and unfortunately, the cost of labor adds up very quickly. Different areas of the nation will have different costs for a motor build, install, etc.
In his case, that price includes labor. He mentioned that he would have to have someone else perform the labor, and unfortunately, the cost of labor adds up very quickly. Different areas of the nation will have different costs for a motor build, install, etc.
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Re: (JakeIsCool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">5000 + boost and tune? If you cant build, boost and tune for less than 3000 dollars, something is wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>
To make an H put out 300-400hp? Youd be lucky if you got it for under 7 total.
To make an H put out 300-400hp? Youd be lucky if you got it for under 7 total.
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Re: (JakeIsCool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you did it yourself, minus tuning, you could do it for 5k including the motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again, the guy asked said he would not be doing it himself. That means, ADD LABOR TO THE COST.
Again, the guy asked said he would not be doing it himself. That means, ADD LABOR TO THE COST.
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How much whp can a stock F22B produce? I am considering a stock diameter crank pulley and 2 oversized (power steering and alternator) aluminum pulleys for my accord. I am expecting to get the 15% extra hp on the crank, so i should be getting around a170hp.
..also... how heavy is the stock flywheel on the F22B???.... If you can answer or have a descent opinion, thanks... if not... don't trash me!!!
..also... how heavy is the stock flywheel on the F22B???.... If you can answer or have a descent opinion, thanks... if not... don't trash me!!!
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Re: (gianinline)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gianinline »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How much whp can a stock F22B produce? I am considering a stock diameter crank pulley and 2 oversized (power steering and alternator) aluminum pulleys for my accord. I am expecting to get the 15% extra hp on the crank, so i should be getting around a170hp.
..also... how heavy is the stock flywheel on the F22B???.... If you can answer or have a descent opinion, thanks... if not... don't trash me!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
15% hp increase from pulleys? hahahaha that's funny. you won't get anywhere near that.
a stock F22 should put down about 125 whp. the pulleys might free up 3 hp if you're lucky.
flywheel I'm not sure I never weighed mine but it was pretty heavy, maybe 20 lbs?
whoever's boosted F was putting down 150 hp/180 trq had something seriously wrong with that setup. 200/200 at the wheels is VERY easy to obtain on a turbo'd F, while you might get 160hp at the wheels of a stock H22 with far less torque.
..also... how heavy is the stock flywheel on the F22B???.... If you can answer or have a descent opinion, thanks... if not... don't trash me!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
15% hp increase from pulleys? hahahaha that's funny. you won't get anywhere near that.
a stock F22 should put down about 125 whp. the pulleys might free up 3 hp if you're lucky.
flywheel I'm not sure I never weighed mine but it was pretty heavy, maybe 20 lbs?
whoever's boosted F was putting down 150 hp/180 trq had something seriously wrong with that setup. 200/200 at the wheels is VERY easy to obtain on a turbo'd F, while you might get 160hp at the wheels of a stock H22 with far less torque.