I asked this in the suspension forum but i think y'all would know better and give me a correct answer.

I've been seeing alot of these "X-bars" in Hatches and Tegs and ive been wondering what all of those do and if they are really effective? I'd assume it stiffens up the car but wouldnt a roll cage be just as effective if not more? I just think it looks rediculous with all those bars at any mounting point u can find.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lekz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just think it looks rediculous with all those bars at any mounting point u can find.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's a pretty good summary right there.

One might argue that the rear strut tower bar is nice to have... but yeah, really, some of those bars get pretty ridiculous.

 

I been debating that in my head to. I figure that EM racing bar is pretty good because it ties the top half of the hatch in. A roll cage with a Diagional in the back would do the same thing but they dont usually tie into the body. I guess you would have to make some sheet metal gussets to tie the main hoop into the B pillars. Seems like a standard roll cage would allow the top half of the body to move side to side around the cage. I have seen cars with cages that also run the full EM kit. When i get back i am going to see my local fab man to get a quote on a good 4 point and ifs its less than the 450 for the EM kit then **** it, i am gonna need a cage either way.

 

A cage is way better than those JDM monkey bars

 

Dude i am pretty sure EM racing is an american company.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM Factor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A cage is way better than those monkey bars</TD></TR></TABLE>

feel better now?

 

Why would you need to brace the sheetmetal? Suspension loads are directed into the frame rails. The sheetmetal only adds a marginal amount of additional stiffness compared to a bare frame.

 

Ok then why are convertables so flimsy? The roof and pillars must serve some purpose, so
Tieing them to the frame should help. I was going to go into a big argument about the triangulation bars, then i relized race cars dont use them, they just have a cage. But most race cars to have the cage tied in to the roof and pillars depending on the construction, Think british super touring cars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lekz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I asked this in the suspension forum but i think y'all would know better and give me a correct answer.

I've been seeing alot of these "X-bars" in Hatches and Tegs and ive been wondering what all of those do and if they are really effective? I'd assume it stiffens up the car but wouldnt a roll cage be just as effective if not more? I just think it looks rediculous with all those bars at any mounting point u can find.</TD></TR></TABLE>

p.s. most of us that know what we're talking about in the suspension forum are the same people that post here

my answer still stands. barz and barz will not make the car faster y0.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok then why are convertables so flimsy? The roof and pillars must serve some purpose, so
Tieing them to the frame should help. I was going to go into a big argument about the triangulation bars, then i relized race cars dont use them, they just have a cage. But most race cars to have the cage tied in to the roof and pillars depending on the construction, Think british super touring cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

A, B, and C - pillars are considered frame members by most in industry. The sheetmetal that covers the exterior is not part of the frame. In any case, a piece of thin-wall Aluminum isn't going to do much.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSpeedR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A, B, and C - pillars are considered frame members by most in industry. The sheetmetal that covers the exterior is not part of the frame. In any case, a piece of thin-wall Aluminum isn't going to do much. </TD></TR></TABLE>

y0 BuT My CaR SKwEEKz HeLLa LeSS WiTh My BolT In JunGLe GyM!!!!

 

So if the pillars are part of the frame why dont we attach the cage to them too? I have seen it done in quite a few cars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So if the pillars are part of the frame why dont we attach the cage to them too? I have seen it done in quite a few cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you just answer your own question? If no, then...yes, we do attach them to the cage. Cage material is way stiffner than the aluminum bitches that are seen in the "strut bar" types of kits.

 

What the hell are we argueing about? I will say this thought, the way the bars on the EM kit are placed their stiffness isnt a big deal. They only take compression and streching loads.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What the hell are we argueing about? I will say this thought, the way the bars on the EM kit are placed their stiffness isnt a big deal. They only take compression and streching loads.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We are talking about why people spend their money on these monkey bar kits if a roll cage will do a better job for nearly the same price. Would i notice an improvement with these setups cuz ive never seen a race car with monky bars....jus a cage.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What the hell are we argueing about? I will say this thought, the way the bars on the EM kit are placed their stiffness isnt a big deal. They only take compression and streching loads.</TD></TR></TABLE>

One question:

Do you have empirical data that proves that those monkey barZ y0! make an appreciable difference?

Some lap times before and after would help, or maybe some torsional data (Chris, you might be able to better explain the latter, I'm no engineer...) with and without the bars.

See, the difference between a cage that is gusset'd at the pillars and these monkey barZ y0! is the amount of attachment points. At most those mokey barZ y0! have 4 attachment points (and I use the term loosely since they are bolted, not welded on), and a gusset is welded completely on.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lekz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We are talking about why people spend their money on these monkey bar kits if a roll cage will do a better job for nearly the same price. Would i notice an improvement with these setups cuz ive never seen a race car with monky bars....jus a cage.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't even think that the average hack would notice a difference before/after an 8pt cage install though. Especially if the suspension isn't completed.

 

Well i think it comes to this. If your not gona cage your car and dont care about roll over protection, then a trinagulation type rear sturt bar would be a good addition. But if your gonna get a cage the in serves no purpose.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One question:

Do you have empirical data that proves that those monkey barZ y0! make an appreciable difference?

Some lap times before and after would help, or maybe some torsional data (Chris, you might be able to better explain the latter, I'm no engineer...) with and without the bars.

See, the difference between a cage that is gusset'd at the pillars and these monkey barZ y0! is the amount of attachment points. At most those mokey barZ y0! have 4 attachment points (and I use the term loosely since they are bolted, not welded on), and a gusset is welded completely on.</TD></TR></TABLE>

As a representative of Monkey Motorsports, i take offense to the vernacular naming of these "BarZ" as "Monkey Barz (y0!)"--Even we monkeys understand that these bars have no real, quantifiable bearing on performance and are sold either as a ruse to take dumb people's money, or to provide mounting points for JDM, USDM and EDM clotheshangers.

As a monkey with a nominal/superficial knowledge of Dynamics, Strength of Materials, and other hodgepodge topics in physics/mechanics, I too demand that the makers of these BarZ, y0! give me some sort of empirical data that would prove to me that bolting tiny tin foil barZ to a strut tower, or worse, non structural parts of the interior frame will do anything besides enable the aforementioned benefits of less disposable income or more places to hang clothing.

 

*dead*

 

To answer some "questions" posed in the thread.

1. The aluminum that most "strut bars" and the like use is more than strong enough to improve the rigidity of a chassis made out of 22-26 gauge sheet metal.

2. Bars that aren't triangulated really don't do diddily squat when they're just mounted to something like the c-pillar.

3. The roof of a car helps torsional rigidity immensely because it triangulates the loads through multiple paths. Plus it puts the thin sheets into tension and torsion, in which they're strongest since they're (yep - that magic word again) triangulated.