Part one of this saga can be found here:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1305105

foot notes:

toda c's with toda valve springs and portflow Ti retainers - the tops of the retainers were chipping on the exhaust side only, with #1 having the worst, then #2, then #3, then #4... (#4 having the least wear/ chipping.) WEIRD. The retainers hadn't noticably galled or thinned.

I removed the portflow Ti retainers, and found that the vtec rocker arm was moving so much at idle that it was hitting the tops of the retainers.

I removed the rocker arms and used a dremel to grind down the underside of all 3 rocker arms for both intake and exhaust on all 4 cylinders. (Total of 24 rocker arms - what a pain in the ***!) I then cleaned the rocker arms of all those lame grinding particles with warm soapy water, then wd-40, and reinstalled them. Then vtecKIDD and I removed the old retainers and installed new rocket Ti retainers. Then I retensioned the timing belt and let the car idle to make sure I did everything right. *WHEW*

Here are the pics:






I would like to thank VtecKIDD for his help in the install, Don F for his phone suport, Michael Reed (Showqween) for the use of his valve spring compressor, and Charles @ http://www.MainStreamPerformance.com for the use of one of his bays.


Modified by Black R at 11:20 AM 7/22/2005

 

I wonder if I’m having the same problem with the VTEC rocker. I’m running Toda B’s, Toda springs and PF retainers and my valve train noise at idle is SO LOUD!! But I have never notice any chipping or any other sings of rocker to retainer contact. I might have too look into this next time I have the valve cover off.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MadtownSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wonder if I’m having the same problem with the VTEC rocker. I’m running Toda B’s, Toda springs and PF retainers and my valve train noise at idle is SO LOUD!! But I have never notice any chipping or any other sings of rocker to retainer contact. I might have too look into this next time I have the valve cover off. </TD></TR></TABLE>


.....I never had this problem with the spec b's.

I believe the extra lift on the spec c vtec lobe was enough to do this.

I wouldn't worry about it with spec b's.

 

just curious,
your grinding in an area that moves away from the rocker as the lobe lifts. Seems more like your issue is with istalled height more then the cam's lift. Especially since your saying its not equal across the board. What did the installed height look like when you put everything together? was it equal across the board? Im assuming its not the heads first valve job?

thanks
m.

edit. i just read your other thread, seems like don F was hinting on something along the same lines.

 

What made you decide to go with the RM retainers? Not knocking them, just curious. I thought they said they are a "snap-in" type that sould only be used with RM springs.

Off topic (kind of) - I asked Toda recently about the "phantom" TI Retainer link on the site and they said they are under development. The response I got for the recommended retainer was:

"The following OEM retainer is what TODA recommends: 14765-P30-000"

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe the extra lift on the spec c vtec lobe was enough to do this.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is wrong. The cams have nothing to do with the retainer getting close to the rockers. It is a spring/retainer installed height issue. You could run 15mm lift and it should not matter since the rockers will contact the rocker at zero lift not at peak lift. I thought that this was mentioned in the thread you linked us to:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Donf &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lift has nothing to do with it. When the valve is down the retainer comes nowhere near the rocker.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Pirate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PirateMcFred &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is wrong. The cams have nothing to do with the retainer getting close to the rockers. It is a spring/retainer installed height issue. You could run 15mm lift and it should not matter since the rockers will contact the rocker at zero lift not at peak lift. I thought that this was mentioned in the thread you linked us to:

Pirate</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is incorrect. I suspect you meant to say the rockers will contact the retainer at zero lift - however, I have since installed new retainers with a lower installed height. I have also shaved the underside of the rocker arms - so that should I choose to use retainers with a similar install height (like the portflow again), I won't have this problem.

Also, have you measured the lift of the primaries vs the lift of the vtec lobes and the ramp angles on the toda c cams? The vtec lobes open the valves earlier, and farther than the primaries. The lma's take this abuse at idle and before vtec crossover. BUT that middle rocker arm is what makes it do it.

THAT MIDDLE ROCKER ARM WAS BARELY KNICKING THE TOPS/ CORNERS OF THE RETAINERS.

I don't know if what I said isn't being conveyed correctly, or if what you're saying isn't coming through to me, but I trust the issue is now resolved - regardless.

 

My B's did this as well, FWIW

 

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PirateMcFred &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This is wrong. The cams have nothing to do with the retainer getting close to the rockers. It is a spring/retainer installed height issue. You could run 15mm lift and it should not matter since the rockers will contact the rocker at zero lift not at peak lift. I thought that this was mentioned in the thread you linked us to:

Pirate</TD></TR></TABLE>


Sorry, but I have to agree with Pirate and Don F; it is a installed spring height issue!

 

same problem - damage to edge of ti retainers
toda b's
toda springs
std itr valves
ti retainers
9000 rpm limit

was thinking about trying another brand of ti retainer
noticed toda used portflow on their project itr

when the midle rocker is not engaged it is still being driven by the cam lobe and this appears to be what is causing the damage

I have marks around the edges of all the retainers with the exhaust being worst but still slight marking on the inlet

anyone compared the different heights of the various ti retainers compared to oem

when I visited toda Japan a few years ago they did not want to talk about ti retainers and told me to run std. oem parts . Maybe there was a reason for this !!!

 

You should have ground the rocker arms down the length of the rocker, not across their width.

It is the same concept as to why when grinding casting/forging marks from rods that you do it length ways not width ways as this can setup stress concentration points which can lead to possible failure at the point of grinding.

 

any pictures of the original/damaged retainers ?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SSS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You should have ground the rocker arms down the length of the rocker, not across their width.

It is the same concept as to why when grinding casting/forging marks from rods that you do it length ways not width ways as this can setup stress concentration points which can lead to possible failure at the point of grinding. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Yes, I read that on TOO after I already did the work.

I really just did the best I could with the dremel without hitting important parts. LOL

I did go lengthwise as best I could - it's hard to tell from the pics though.

I hope it works out ok, I was tired and frustrated, and if it fails, **** it - so that point is moot.